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Post by bigmartin on May 31, 2020 11:05:58 GMT
It's the same in the U.K., the only difference between the U.K. and America is guns making all situations potentially more dangerous, we've had race riots and we'll have them again. When the imminent recession hits it'll be those at the bottom hit hardest and they'll respond like anyone else with nothing to lose. It really isn’t the same in Britain. the college professor example above would be incredibly unlikely to happen in this country, as that sort of thing doesn’t happen to middle class professionals. We are a still a society stratified largely by class, not by race. That certainly isn’t to say we’re perfect, but middle class doctors of Indian decent / Chinese computer programmers etc. are far less likely to be subject to societal racism than black kids on dodgy London council estates / Muslim women with headscarfs who speak little English. I think, notwithstanding my response above, the British police service is better. I think a lot of that is that they police with consent and they are not equipped with any routinely deadly weapon. Also, the British public are actually very good at "policing themselves". Not sure whether that's the case in the USA as much.
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Post by vicar on May 31, 2020 11:12:44 GMT
Try telling black kids in any of our big cities how much better it is here, I worked with a hard working West Indian bloke who was pulled over regularly because he drove a nice car while I inadvertently drove without an MOT.
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Post by bigmartin on May 31, 2020 11:21:19 GMT
Try telling black kids in any of our big cities how much better it is here, I worked with a hard working West Indian bloke who was pulled over regularly because he drove a nice car while I inadvertently drove without an MOT. Relatively. He didn't get shot. Plenty do over there. But yes, I take your point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 11:36:59 GMT
Try telling black kids in any of our big cities how much better it is here, I worked with a hard working West Indian bloke who was pulled over regularly because he drove a nice car while I inadvertently drove without an MOT. Relatively. He didn't get shot. Plenty do over there. But yes, I take your point. The police in the USA basically have free reign on their actions given to them by the politicians and sadly the quote "power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind. They can and do frequently hide behind "the law" to justify most everything they want to do, and they also have the numbers to intimidate individuals. After decades of attempts to remedy the situation racism hasn't gone away, it may be worse now than it has ever been as a lot continues serupticiously not up front like it did with the colour bar and I fear its an impossible task for society to reason out. We will continue to be disgusted by what is going on but I suggest its so regular an event it dosent reqally shock any more. Rosa Parks said "no" in 1955 but has the reality of racism changed in 65 years, I think not! Its a very sad inditement on society thats for sure
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Post by Stranded Hatter on May 31, 2020 11:55:43 GMT
Relatively. He didn't get shot. Plenty do over there. But yes, I take your point. The police in the USA basically have free reign on their actions given to them by the politicians and sadly the quote "power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind. They can and do frequently hide behind "the law" to justify most everything they want to do, and they also have the numbers to intimidate individuals. After decades of attempts to remedy the situation racism hasn't gone away, it may be worse now than it has ever been as a lot continues serupticiously not up front like it did with the colour bar and I fear its an impossible task for society to reason out. We will continue to be disgusted by what is going on but I suggest its so regular an event it dosent reqally shock any more. Rosa Parks said "no" in 1955 but has the reality of racism changed in 65 years, I think not! Its a very sad inditement on society thats for sure Power doesn’t always corrupt, power always reveals. If you do something when you have power it was something you always wanted to do, but never had the power. I agree it hasn’t gone away, I disagree it’s impossible to fix. The issue isn’t that some people hold racist views, the issue is that systems and institutions are inherently racist from top to bottom.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 12:01:17 GMT
The police in the USA basically have free reign on their actions given to them by the politicians and sadly the quote "power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" comes to mind. They can and do frequently hide behind "the law" to justify most everything they want to do, and they also have the numbers to intimidate individuals. After decades of attempts to remedy the situation racism hasn't gone away, it may be worse now than it has ever been as a lot continues serupticiously not up front like it did with the colour bar and I fear its an impossible task for society to reason out. We will continue to be disgusted by what is going on but I suggest its so regular an event it dosent reqally shock any more. Rosa Parks said "no" in 1955 but has the reality of racism changed in 65 years, I think not! Its a very sad inditement on society thats for sure Power doesn’t always corrupt, power always reveals. If you do something when you have power it was something you always wanted to do, but never had the power. I agree it hasn’t gone away, I disagree it’s impossible to fix. The issue isn’t that some people hold racist views, the issue is that systems and institutions are inherently racist from top to bottom. As I said "power tends to corrupt" so how do you fix it? Many have tried and failed
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Post by Stranded Hatter on May 31, 2020 12:44:01 GMT
I don’t agree that power tends to corrupt. This sums up my feelings on it: “Lately, Adam Grant, an organizational psychologist from the Wharton School in Pennsylvania, has offered a different setting of power dynamics in an article in the ‘Washington Post’. He says that it is not the possession of power that facilitates corruption because power itself does not change people. Instead, holding power ‘accentuates their pre-existing traits’ of say arrogance, hostility, haughtiness, corruption, selfishness etc. The key word is ‘pre-existing’. Similarly, on the other extreme inherent benign attributes in a person also get magnified when holding power. This new line of thinking in psychology lays down that ‘power is like an amplifier. Whoever we were before just gets louder’.” www.thenews.com.pk/print/522226-does-power-corruptAs for solving structural and institutional racism? If I knew the answer to that I’d be trying to get myself into a position of power to create the change needed to do that. But just because I can’t fix society doesn’t mean I think it’s beyond fixing. There are hundreds if not thousands of ills in society that need fixing, and they all can be fixed. If those who have the power also have the will. There are first steps though, important things that can set the ball rolling. Such as accepting there are inherent structural forces at work that do weaken, or strengthen, people’s lot in life based on race. Recognising there’s a disease is the first step towards finding the cure, unfortunately so many people are still convinced theirs no disease and that “colour blindness” will solve any perceived issue. Colour blindness is the end goal when the disease is gone, at this point it’s just ignoring the problem.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on May 31, 2020 13:09:34 GMT
Peaceful protests haven't worked. Look at Colin Kaeparnick and the response he and other black American footballers got for peacefully protesting by kneeling during the national anthem. He's been blackballed by the NFL; derided by Trump and all other flag-flying, god-fearing white Americans. Look at the difference between these protests against the killing of an unarmed black man by police and a group of heavily armed white men taking over the Michegan capitol building a month back because they didn't like lockdown. Trump described the protestors as 'thugs' and threatened them with violence, yet described the armed white men as 'good people'. What else can people do? Precisely. And I lifted this from an ex-military guy (Jim Wright) on Facebook: People felt they were oppressed.
They were treated as second class citizens.
They were imprisoned without trial.
Their property was taken without justification.
They were daily abused and even murdered by law enforcement without appeal or recourse.
So, naturally, they protested this injustice.
They petitioned the government. They sent representatives to plead their case. They appealed to the law, to the public, to the powerful. To God.
Their protests fell on deaf ears.
Those in power ignored their complaints.
So they protested LOUDER.
There was civil unrest, marches, petitions to the government.
Those in power didn't care about justice, the powerful never do. They refused to listen. To change. This went on for years, generations.
Arrests, murders, injustice increased.
And so, naturally, the people resorted to violence because it was the only avenue the powerful had left them. They burned businesses, destroyed property, rioted in the streets, and took up arms.
It could have stopped there.
Those in power could have listened, could have reached an accommodation in good faith, could have respected life and liberty and created a more equitable and fair society.
But, of course, they didn't.
The powerful never do.
And so, finally, it came down violence on a mass scale. Tens of thousands dead. Billions in property lost...
What?
Oh.
Heh heh. I see.
You thought I was talking about Minneapolis?
No, I was talking about the American Revolution.
Funny, that. Isn't it?
Funny how when America's white ancestors rose up in violence against oppression and tyranny, when THEY destroyed millions in property and business, when they marched in protest, when they took up arms against authority, when they demanded justice, they were patriots.
Yes, funny indeed.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on May 31, 2020 13:18:14 GMT
By the way, there seems to be evidence (as noted elsewhere) that a lot of this violence is coming from far right / white nationalist agencies who are hoping that this is the beginning of what they call the "Boogaloo" (long fomented in places like 4Chan but now becoming more open with groups on Facebook etc). They co-opted the anti-lockdown protests as well.
I wouldn't necessarily suggest doing a deep search for the term, so in essence it's the carving or even plan for an anti-government, anti-liberal, pro-white/conservative Civil War. The White House is implicitly encouraging it.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on May 31, 2020 13:24:59 GMT
Also, the British public are actually very good at "policing themselves". Not sure whether that's the case in the USA as much. It seems to be the case where I live. In fact, possibly more so. For a country that is viewed as fiercely individualistic, I have found a great sense of community and social responsibility. Respect for property and much less petty vandalism and casual Saturday night violence (of the "are you looking at my pint?" variety) than I found in the UK. It's a massive country so I concede that this is possibly just true of my part of the Midwest.
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Post by HTC on May 31, 2020 15:01:31 GMT
Certainly less drunken yobbery type violence, but that’s the trade off in being a highly armed / military society.
Essentially, you’re less likely to behave like a tw*t of a Saturday night if the punishment could end up with you being shot.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 15:06:13 GMT
Getting a bit close for me now. Neighboring towns here in Southern California have seen violence over the last few nights. My brother in law is also a sergeant in the CHP and he was deployed to San Diego to help last night.
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Post by vicar on May 31, 2020 15:16:03 GMT
Also, the British public are actually very good at "policing themselves". Not sure whether that's the case in the USA as much. It seems to be the case where I live. In fact, possibly more so. For a country that is viewed as fiercely individualistic, I have found a great sense of community and social responsibility. Respect for property and much less petty vandalism and casual Saturday night violence (of the "are you looking at my pint?" variety) than I found in the UK. It's a massive country so I concede that this is possibly just true of my part of the Midwest. That Saturday night violence in the U.K. is a thing of the past, I can't remember when I last saw a fight on.a night out.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on May 31, 2020 15:36:15 GMT
Certainly less drunken yobbery type violence, but that’s the trade off in being a highly armed / military society. Essentially, you’re less likely to behave like a t*** of a Saturday night if the punishment could end up with you being shot. Although guns are obviously a huge problem, I wouldn't say that it's a HIGHLY armed society - in that most people are not automatically carrying a gun around when they're shopping or at the bar. I'll grant you that the idea that some loon *might* pull a gun on you is the back of your mind if there's, say, a highway altercation, but it's not generally at the forefront in most situations. Fights happen (without guns) of course but there are fewer people *setting out* to look for one, it seems. Anyway, it's more about the relative lack of petty and casual vandalism for the fun of it, is what I'm driving at. More respect for your neighborhood and other people's property.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 15:52:18 GMT
Certainly less drunken yobbery type violence, but that’s the trade off in being a highly armed / military society. Essentially, you’re less likely to behave like a t*** of a Saturday night if the punishment could end up with you being shot. A lot of truth in this. Never really thought of it like that. I’m very polite to my neighbors because you just never know who has what but like Fez says it’s not in the forefront of your mind. I live in one of the most democratic states yet my community is like a Trump rally sometimes. People pushing their views on the Facebook page. Car stickers in support of the NRA and even one cartoon of Trump urinating on Liberals.
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