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Trump
Jul 6, 2020 14:48:45 GMT
Post by HTC on Jul 6, 2020 14:48:45 GMT
We are. Not for the reasons you suggest though. The rise of racism is down to racists, not those who oppose them.
the rise of racism seems to be a classic example of unforseen consequences, and an area where the focus on identity politics has unleashed forces that were seemingly close to being buried.
In the 90s, the idea that all races would be treated equally was seen as a desirable outcome
A few years later, a horrible combination of postmodernism and social media meant that had changed and the idea of 'equal treatment' was a bad thing rose, meaning that every different sub-group needed to be treated / dealt with differently depending on myriad other factors, social and otherwise, amplifying difference between people, rather than emphasising common humanity.
A few years later again, people like Trump / Johnson / their handlers realised that they could redefine this post-modern identity project to mean white people were just another 'identity group' deserving of special treatment - a message that resounded with lots of people for whom the system was not working, as they perceived that they deserved special treatment related to their identities too.
Social media then creates filter bubbles emphasising the politics of grievance, and that's where we are today unfortunately.
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Post by Mozzer on Jul 6, 2020 14:59:39 GMT
We are. Not for the reasons you suggest though. The rise of racism is down to racists, not those who oppose them.
the rise of racism seems to be a classic example of unforseen consequences, and an area where the focus on identity politics has unleashed forces that were seemingly close to being buried.
In the 90s, the idea that all races would be treated equally was seen as a desirable outcome
A few years later, a horrible combination of postmodernism and social media meant that had changed and the idea of 'equal treatment' was a bad thing rose, meaning that every different sub-group needed to be treated / dealt with differently depending on myriad other factors, social and otherwise, amplifying difference between people, rather than emphasising common humanity.
A few years later again, people like Trump / Johnson / their handlers realised that they could redefine this post-modern identity project to mean white people were just another 'identity group' deserving of special treatment - a message that resounded with lots of people for whom the system was not working, as they perceived that they deserved special treatment related to their identities too.
Social media then creates filter bubbles emphasising the politics of grievance, and that's where we are today unfortunately.
There may be truth in that. But the racism is the result of system failure, not of people trying to treat everyone more equally. Division has always served the right wing, they just find different ways to demonise and exploit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 15:02:26 GMT
Do you think number of deaths by police is proportionate to the number of crimes committed? I really do think that due to the recent BLM actions we, as the human race, are now more racially divided than we have been for sometime. The whole BLM movement is divisive and whilst that was never the intention it is becoming more of a problem for society than the problem it was created to address. We are moving backwards, sadly. It’s only divisive and a problem if your natural instinct is to defend/deny racism rather than listen, learn and empathize.
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Trump
Jul 7, 2020 8:59:04 GMT
Post by timberwolf on Jul 7, 2020 8:59:04 GMT
Do you think number of deaths by police is proportionate to the number of crimes committed? I really do think that due to the recent BLM actions we, as the human race, are now more racially divided than we have been for sometime. The whole BLM movement is divisive and whilst that was never the intention it is becoming more of a problem for society than the problem it was created to address. We are moving backwards, sadly. It’s only divisive and a problem if your natural instinct is to defend/deny racism rather than listen, learn and empathize. agree on going backwards. its getting to the point where people either have to follow BLM warts and all or be against it. those millions who have no real interest in the present situation who just used to carry on with their lives have been sucked into the arguement. this is all races as well. has this country become more racist than 12 months ago or less. has BLM helped or had the opposie affect on relations between all people.
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Post by Mozzer on Jul 7, 2020 9:09:20 GMT
Is it more openly racist than it was 5 years ago? I'd say so.
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Deleted
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Trump
Jul 7, 2020 10:18:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 10:18:04 GMT
Yeah, I agree. BLM is making race division far worse than I've known in the past five years.
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Post by Nik on Jul 7, 2020 10:24:10 GMT
Yeah, I agree. BLM is making race division far worse than I've known in the past five years. Yes, the black people protesting against racism are the problem, not the racists themselves. Wonderful logic.
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Trump
Jul 8, 2020 11:13:06 GMT
Post by HTC on Jul 8, 2020 11:13:06 GMT
I think it's more the case that BLM is seen as a wider part of cancel culture / the authoritarian left, which has certainly provoked a backlash.
The letter published today by Atwood / Chomsky / Steinem et.al gives an idea of where I'm coming from with this theory, but to use an example, if Salman Rushdie had written the Satanic Verses today, people would be queueing up to denounce him as Islamophobic to demonstrate their moral superiority, in the way many on the left steered pretty close to 'Charlie Hebdo was asking for it' when talking about the attacks in Paris.
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Trump
Jul 8, 2020 11:22:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by Mozzer on Jul 8, 2020 11:22:10 GMT
I think it's more the case that BLM is seen as a wider part of cancel culture / the authoritarian left, which has certainly provoked a backlash. The letter published today by Atwood / Chomsky / Steinem et.al gives an idea of where I'm coming from with this theory, but to use an example, if Salman Rushdie had written the Satanic Verses today, people would be queueing up to denounce him as Islamophobic to demonstrate their moral superiority, in the way many on the left steered pretty close to 'Charlie Hebdo was asking for it' when talking about the attacks in Paris. I won't get into some of that, but if the response of someone to BLM is to be racist, then they're a racist. You can question motives and actions quite legitimately without being a racist. Questioning things does not equal division. It's a normal part of a functioning democracy.
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Trump
Jul 8, 2020 11:27:52 GMT
Post by HTC on Jul 8, 2020 11:27:52 GMT
I won't get into some of that, but if the response of someone to BLM is to be racist, then they're a racist. You can question motives and actions quite legitimately without being a racist. Questioning things does not equal division. It's a normal part of a functioning democracy.
Would agree with that.
Where we perhaps disagree is that I don't feel that 'not supporting BLM' means that de facto 'you are a racist' (possibly too many double negatives there, but hope I'm clear)
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Trump
Jul 8, 2020 11:43:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by Mozzer on Jul 8, 2020 11:43:00 GMT
I won't get into some of that, but if the response of someone to BLM is to be racist, then they're a racist. You can question motives and actions quite legitimately without being a racist. Questioning things does not equal division. It's a normal part of a functioning democracy.
Would agree with that.
Where we perhaps disagree is that I don't feel that 'not supporting BLM' means that de facto 'you are a racist' (possibly too many double negatives there, but hope I'm clear)
If I understand you correctly then I agree and it was what I was trying to say in my previous posting, albeit fairly clumsily. I think we've seen in this thread that there are people arguing against BLM who have received a counter argument to their opinion without being called racist.
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Deleted
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Trump
Jul 8, 2020 13:19:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 13:19:40 GMT
But do they think it?
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Post by Mozzer on Jul 8, 2020 13:36:57 GMT
Well, they've made a case against the merits of your own argument without calling you a racist. I suppose if you want to go down the road of supposing what people think despite them not having said it, you could do so...
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Deleted
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Trump
Jul 8, 2020 15:23:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:23:42 GMT
Then maybe we can talk about the merits of unconscious bias.
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Trump
Jul 8, 2020 16:11:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by Mozzer on Jul 8, 2020 16:11:01 GMT
All ears.
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