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Post by bigmartin on Jun 2, 2020 18:23:44 GMT
I see it as similar (if it helps explain it any better...which it probably does not) to getting one of those wonderful meme's around Remembrance Day. Poppies. Union Flag. WW2 veterans. A perfectly sound message of Remembrance. You crack on and share it around Facebook/Twitter/wherever. Then you see/are told that the meme was created by Britain First. The message is absolutely fine. Respectful. Timely. On point. But the messenger just want to get clicks/likes/shares. To show support for their agenda. One wouldn't have shared the meme, if one knew it was from Britain First, even though the message is a good one. Well, not unless you were pro-Britain First. Or perhaps naive/ignorant/missed the clues. At which point when it's pointed out...of course you'd take it down. You wouldn't say "well I agree with the message". You'd just take it down. Or most people would at least. It reminds me of when Brinksway Boy defended his wearing of a Confederate flag because it didn't have a racist meaning to him. Christ I can't remember that. But I can hear him in my head
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 19:27:47 GMT
100% spot on. National Socialist German Worker's Party... oooo....Socialists.... Did you know that Hitler was actually left wing?! Have that you looney Corbynistas! Wow, didn't think my respectfully stated post would generate responses referring to the Holocaust, socialism, a Hitler conspiracy theory and Jeremy Corbyn. Blimey.
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Post by Nik on Jun 2, 2020 19:31:58 GMT
Did you know that Hitler was actually left wing?! Have that you looney Corbynistas! Wow, didn't think my respectfully stated post would generate responses referring to the Holocaust, socialism, a Hitler conspiracy theory and Jeremy Corbyn. Blimey. My post was very much tongue in cheek. Bigmartin and hedleyverity make a good point though. It's not always the message that is the problem, but often it's the origin and agenda behind it that are troublesome.
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Post by bigmartin on Jun 2, 2020 19:32:04 GMT
Did you know that Hitler was actually left wing?! Have that you looney Corbynistas! Wow, didn't think my respectfully stated post would generate responses referring to the Holocaust, socialism, a Hitler conspiracy theory and Jeremy Corbyn. Blimey. You can't begin to imagine the influence you have see.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 20:35:42 GMT
Some great posts in this thread, many conscience pricking ones too... I saw this from Spike Lee earlier.. Can't really argue with it either...
He traced the inequalities in the US back to the country's foundation.
"The land was stolen from native people, genocide was committed against the native people, and ancestors were stolen from Africa and brought here to work," he said.
"So the foundation of the United States of America is genocide, stealing land and slavery.
"Any architect will tell you that if you don't have a strong foundation, the building's going to be shaky, and shaky from day one... This original sin has not been dealt with since the birth of this country."
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 2, 2020 22:28:40 GMT
Some great posts in this thread, many conscience pricking ones too... I saw this from Spike Lee earlier.. Can't really argue with it either... He traced the inequalities in the US back to the country's foundation. "The land was stolen from native people, genocide was committed against the native people, and ancestors were stolen from Africa and brought here to work," he said. "So the foundation of the United States of America is genocide, stealing land and slavery. "Any architect will tell you that if you don't have a strong foundation, the building's going to be shaky, and shaky from day one... This original sin has not been dealt with since the birth of this country." It's well said, and thanks for sharing. It's never been the ideal cotton-candy land that the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and various Amendments make it seem to be, however worthy. The end of *official* segregation was not that long ago either, in historical terms. And in some people's eyes, neither was the Civil War, frankly, as frequent adherence to the Confederate battle flag in southern states makes clear. "So the foundation of the United States of America is genocide, stealing land and slavery."These played a large part in the UK's history as well, of course, but it tends to be glossed over. I read something recently that British history was taught, in a nutshell, along the lines of "1066... Victoria... two World Wars... we won."
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 2, 2020 22:33:28 GMT
I see it as similar (if it helps explain it any better...which it probably does not) to getting one of those wonderful meme's around Remembrance Day. Poppies. Union Flag. WW2 veterans. A perfectly sound message of Remembrance. You crack on and share it around Facebook/Twitter/wherever. Then you see/are told that the meme was created by Britain First. The message is absolutely fine. Respectful. Timely. On point. But the messenger just want to get clicks/likes/shares. To show support for their agenda. One wouldn't have shared the meme, if one knew it was from Britain First, even though the message is a good one. Well, not unless you were pro-Britain First. Or perhaps naive/ignorant/missed the clues. At which point when it's pointed out...of course you'd take it down. You wouldn't say "well I agree with the message". You'd just take it down. Or most people would at least. It reminds me of when Brinksway Boy defended his wearing of a Confederate flag because it didn't have a racist meaning to him. We had neighbours once (in Emgland) who felt the same. They could not be gently persuaded otherwise. Had a big old Confederate battle flag transfer plastered across the rear windscreen of their PT Cruiser. Looked as daft as you can imagine. I have feeling their horn played "Dixie" as well but memory might be making that up.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 2, 2020 22:37:52 GMT
Nothing; his final paragraph is absolutely spot on. What I'm saying is for him to get that but then wildly miss the point of Black Lives Matter is odd. If he knows the last paragraph to be correct and he can see what is happening in the world right now then he should know why Black Lives Matter. Got to support CB1883 on this. If he wants to express "all lives matter" as a statement of support for all people of all colour then what's wrong with that? I'm aware of the roof of the phrase but that shouldn't prevent somebody like CB1883 from using those words in a kind and humanitarian way. But the root of the phrase is the problem. It's diluting and belittling the original sentiment, as several people have tried to clarify, especially when it's used in the same conversation. It's obviously a very worthy sentiment - but English is a very rich language, so I'm sure that people could come up with a less loaded set of three or four words to express it.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 2, 2020 22:44:12 GMT
The point is that All Lives Matter gives white people a way of claiming they're marginalised and oppressed, which they aren't. It's not about white people's lives mattering; white people's lives have always mattered which is entirely the problem. This is about the lives of those who are oppressed by default by systematic racism that exists in society. In the nicest possible way, does it bollocks. Are people who aren’t treated in a way that makes them feel like second class citizens and oppressed going to make them hijack the cause? I’d say not. Tat's incorrect. The cause *has* been hijacked by white supremacy groups, who are *not* oppressed second-class citizens but like to feel or pretend that they *are* because their attitudes and actions have been, let's say, increasingly frowned upon in recent years.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 2, 2020 22:53:30 GMT
Whoever you are, wherever you’re from the very least you should expect is to be treated as equal. We’re all born in the same hospitals, we’re all breathing in the same air. If only that were true. You should absolutely expect to be treated as equal whoever you are, as enshrined by the Founding Fathers (and in constitutions and laws worldwide). We all know it isn't true. And if only we *were* born in the same hospitals and breathe the same air. Children come into this world in every circumstance, from state-of-the-art healthcare through birthing pools and NHS hospitals, to ratty overcrowded wards in underdeveloped nations or a dumpster in a back-alley. And breathing the same air? Ask people in Bhopal or Lahore, or about the water in Flint, Michigan. Anyway, I've bored you all with my soap box for long enough now ; )
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Post by timberwolf on Jun 3, 2020 8:14:30 GMT
We had neighbours once (in Emgland) who felt the same. They could not be gently persuaded otherwise. Had a big old Confederate battle flag transfer plastered across the rear windscreen of their PT Cruiser. Looked as daft as you can imagine. I have feeling their horn played "Dixie" as well but memory might be making that up. many owners of old american seem to either put the texan or confederate flag on their vehicles. doubt it makes em all red necked racists as does the display of the st,georges cross makes folk to be members of the far right.
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Post by timberwolf on Jun 3, 2020 8:20:51 GMT
Some great posts in this thread, many conscience pricking ones too... I saw this from Spike Lee earlier.. Can't really argue with it either... He traced the inequalities in the US back to the country's foundation. "The land was stolen from native people, genocide was committed against the native people, and ancestors were stolen from Africa and brought here to work," he said. "So the foundation of the United States of America is genocide, stealing land and slavery. "Any architect will tell you that if you don't have a strong foundation, the building's going to be shaky, and shaky from day one... This original sin has not been dealt with since the birth of this country." the usa has the problem of timescale. all this has happened in quite a short period of time, whereas changes in oher countries have taken much longer. back in our empire days we might have stolen land from various races but did not introduce slaves in large numbers from another place.
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Post by hedleyverity on Jun 3, 2020 8:31:02 GMT
Some great posts in this thread, many conscience pricking ones too... I saw this from Spike Lee earlier.. Can't really argue with it either... He traced the inequalities in the US back to the country's foundation. "The land was stolen from native people, genocide was committed against the native people, and ancestors were stolen from Africa and brought here to work," he said. "So the foundation of the United States of America is genocide, stealing land and slavery. "Any architect will tell you that if you don't have a strong foundation, the building's going to be shaky, and shaky from day one... This original sin has not been dealt with since the birth of this country." the usa has the problem of timescale. all this has happened in quite a short period of time, whereas changes in oher countries have taken much longer. back in our empire days we might have stolen land from various races but did not introduce slaves in large numbers from another place. How do you think the slaves got from Africa to the Carribbean and America?
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 3, 2020 8:58:52 GMT
Are you kidding me? I suggest you take another look. They might not have stayed in the UK but the Atlantic slave trade was a large part of what made Liverpool and Bristol wealthy.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 3, 2020 9:04:02 GMT
The Confederacy fought primarily for the right to continue to keep slaves, whatever revisionist protestations might try to claim. By definition, brandishing that flag makes you racist - and also traitorous, come to that, given that the Confederacy fought against the United States. Pleasingly, it furthermore means that those displaying it proclaim themselves losers. The Texan flag is a different thing altogether. I don't see how that has any relevance whatsoever.
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