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Post by bigmartin on Jun 3, 2020 9:06:37 GMT
Some great posts in this thread, many conscience pricking ones too... I saw this from Spike Lee earlier.. Can't really argue with it either... He traced the inequalities in the US back to the country's foundation. "The land was stolen from native people, genocide was committed against the native people, and ancestors were stolen from Africa and brought here to work," he said. "So the foundation of the United States of America is genocide, stealing land and slavery. "Any architect will tell you that if you don't have a strong foundation, the building's going to be shaky, and shaky from day one... This original sin has not been dealt with since the birth of this country." the usa has the problem of timescale. all this has happened in quite a short period of time, whereas changes in oher countries have taken much longer. back in our empire days we might have stolen land from various races but did not introduce slaves in large numbers from another place. Hmm. Respectfully, I'd recommend you pay a visit to the Liverpool museum. Our Industrial Revolution was built pretty much entirely on the back of profits from the slave trade. Everything we are economically, the growth of the great British ports. and therefore of ship building. The steel mills to build those ships. And the coal mines to power industry. The railways to transport it all about. ALL originated from the profits from the slave trade. OK, I guess there's an element of proximity. But the slave trade ultimately put the 'Great' in Great Britain. For the sake of balance, we also as a country were instrumental in bringing it to an end. And we outlawed it a long time before other nations such as the USA. Freetown, the Capital of Sierra Leone, takes its name from slaves freed by the British Navy, commonly from US Slavers.
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Post by suedehead on Jun 3, 2020 9:08:27 GMT
Whoever you are, wherever you’re from the very least you should expect is to be treated as equal. We’re all born in the same hospitals, we’re all breathing in the same air. If only that were true. You should absolutely expect to be treated as equal whoever you are, as enshrined by the Founding Fathers (and in constitutions and laws worldwide). We all know it isn't true. And if only we *were* born in the same hospitals and breathe the same air. Children come into this world in every circumstance, from state-of-the-art healthcare through birthing pools and NHS hospitals, to ratty overcrowded wards in underdeveloped nations or a dumpster in a back-alley. And breathing the same air? Ask people in Bhopal or Lahore, or about the water in Flint, Michigan. Anyway, I've bored you all with my soap box for long enough now ; ) Have been reading quite a bit about Bhopal recently. Think my interest in man-made disasters has been piqued over the last year after watching Chernobyl. Have asked quite a few friends about Bhopal and barely anyone seems to have heard about it. Horrific stuff.
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Post by Nik on Jun 3, 2020 9:33:19 GMT
The Confederacy fought primarily for the right to continue to keep slaves, whatever revisionist protestations might try to claim. By definition, brandishing that flag makes you racist - and also traitorous, come to that, given that the Confederacy fought against the United States. Pleasingly, it furthermore means that those displaying it proclaim themselves losers. The Texan flag is a different thing altogether. I don't see how that has any relevance whatsoever. I think it would depend on ignorance. If someone thinks it's the flag from Dukes of Hazard then I'd say they're being ignorant/unknowingly racist. If someone knows or knows of the history but displays it anyway then they're being purposely racist.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 3, 2020 9:49:55 GMT
The Confederacy fought primarily for the right to continue to keep slaves, whatever revisionist protestations might try to claim. By definition, brandishing that flag makes you racist - and also traitorous, come to that, given that the Confederacy fought against the United States. Pleasingly, it furthermore means that those displaying it proclaim themselves losers. The Texan flag is a different thing altogether. I don't see how that has any relevance whatsoever. I think it would depend on ignorance. If someone thinks it's the flag from Dukes of Hazard then I'd say they're being ignorant/unknowingly racist. If someone knows or knows of the history but displays it anyway then they're being purposely racist. I'd agree with that. Possibly unknowingly racist, and your Dukes of Hazzard example is a good one; but in the US I'd give people a lot less leeway. They should readily know about that for which it stands, and it's mostly either deliberate ignorance or provocation to use that flag.
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Post by timberwolf on Jun 3, 2020 10:35:24 GMT
The Confederacy fought primarily for the right to continue to keep slaves, whatever revisionist protestations might try to claim. By definition, brandishing that flag makes you racist - and also traitorous, come to that, given that the Confederacy fought against the United States. Pleasingly, it furthermore means that those displaying it proclaim themselves losers. The Texan flag is a different thing altogether. I don't see how that has any relevance whatsoever. it isn,t in this case but does seem to go hand in hand with old american car ownership for one reason or another. if you own a 56 plymouth i really doubt the owner will look so deeply into the subject when they put a sticker on their windscreen. i never thought that the owner of the vehicle was advocating the start up of slavery again by there actions.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jun 3, 2020 10:51:36 GMT
The Confederacy fought primarily for the right to continue to keep slaves, whatever revisionist protestations might try to claim. By definition, brandishing that flag makes you racist - and also traitorous, come to that, given that the Confederacy fought against the United States. Pleasingly, it furthermore means that those displaying it proclaim themselves losers. The Texan flag is a different thing altogether. I don't see how that has any relevance whatsoever. it isn,t in this case but does seem to go hand in hand with old american car ownership for one reason or another. if you own a 56 plymouth i really doubt the owner will look so deeply into the subject when they put a sticker on their windscreen. i never thought that the owner of the vehicle was advocating the start up of slavery again by there actions. You don't need to dig far at all to unearth the meaning of the Confederate flag, though. And although I, too, highly doubt that most bearers of the flag are advocating a return to slavery, it is certainly brandished by neo-fascists, which is something else your putative '56 Plymouth owner cannot have failed to notice. With information so readily available I don't give too much leeway to the display of such an inflammatory device. Granted, it is a more sensitive subject in the US than at a vintage car show in the UK.
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Post by timberwolf on Jun 3, 2020 10:55:48 GMT
Are you kidding me? I suggest you take another look. They might not have stayed in the UK but the Atlantic slave trade was a large part of what made Liverpool and Bristol wealthy. the fact is other countries were involved in the slave trade too. as someone stated, we were the first to stop it. whilst our colonial rule might not have been to everyones taste i do think we as a country came out of it better than some. germany, spain, france and the dutch were not enlightened nations. even down to the obvious racism in america where the whites are concerned. a country that has had white immegrants from every country in the world has hardly followed a more liberal approach as we have.
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Post by timberwolf on Jun 3, 2020 11:05:45 GMT
You don't need to dig far at all to unearth the meaning of the Confederate flag, though. And although I, too, highly doubt that most bearers of the flag are advocating a return to slavery, it is certainly brandished by neo-fascists, which is something else your putative '56 Plymouth owner cannot have failed to notice. With information so readily available I don't give too much leeway to the display of such an inflammatory device. Granted, it is a more sensitive subject in the US than at a vintage car show in the UK. is it illegal to display the confederate flag in the USA in any form. i,d go further than you by brandishing some especiaaly in the deep south, as fascists and not neo ones. their discriptions of fellow human beings would make bernard manning and jim davidson blush. would these rednecks over there support the re introduction of slavery. as usual with any subject there will be a handfull, but on the whole i doubt it. the constant putting em down and treating as sub human may be enough.
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Post by bigmartin on Jun 3, 2020 11:48:27 GMT
You don't need to dig far at all to unearth the meaning of the Confederate flag, though. And although I, too, highly doubt that most bearers of the flag are advocating a return to slavery, it is certainly brandished by neo-fascists, which is something else your putative '56 Plymouth owner cannot have failed to notice. With information so readily available I don't give too much leeway to the display of such an inflammatory device. Granted, it is a more sensitive subject in the US than at a vintage car show in the UK. is it illegal to display the confederate flag in the USA in any form. i,d go further than you by brandishing some especiaaly in the deep south, as fascists and not neo ones. their discriptions of fellow human beings would make bernard manning and jim davidson blush. would these rednecks over there support the re introduction of slavery. as usual with any subject there will be a handfull, but on the whole i doubt it. the constant putting em down and treating as sub human may be enough. It's absolutely NOT illegal. In fact the right to display it is protected by their Constitution. I'm not convinced whether that is a good or bad thing.
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Post by someoneelse on Jun 3, 2020 15:43:51 GMT
Couple of interesting videos for those interested in broadening knowledge.
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Post by CB1883 on Jun 3, 2020 21:48:16 GMT
Officer with his knee on the neck has his charge ‘upgraded’ to second degree murder, warrants put out earlier today for the other 3 officers involved. They’re charged with aiding & abetting in second degree murder. Main attorney in the case has confirmed the 3 other officers can face the same maximum punishment.
Thanked the public for their patience and has given a warning that it will take months to build the cases. Expects no issue with having a fair trial in Minnesota.
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scarf
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Post by scarf on Jun 4, 2020 7:55:12 GMT
Have you’d read the book this is based on? It really opened my eyes.
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Post by HTC on Jun 4, 2020 9:21:36 GMT
I must admit the click bait-y title has always made me assume the book was a ‘preaching to the converted’ style tome, rather than being worth reading.
Is that not the case?
For reference, I’m just reading the Fukuyama book on identity politics at the moment, and that broadly chimes with my views on the wider topic.
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Post by Nik on Jun 4, 2020 9:25:38 GMT
I must admit the click bait-y title has always made me assume the book was a ‘preaching to the converted’ style tome, rather than being worth reading. Is that not the case? For reference, I’m just reading the Fukuyama book on identity politics at the moment, and that broadly chimes with my views on the wider topic. It's unapologetic in its opinions on how black people have been oppressed; systematic racism and white privilege. Understandable why the title would put some off but if someone wants to challenge their own perceptions on race and try and show some understanding from the perspective of people on the end of it, then it's a great read.
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Post by HTC on Jun 4, 2020 9:32:00 GMT
Great thanks - only other question is whether it’s very US centric, or whether it’s a bit more global?
Sounds worth picking up anyway - will look for a copy now.
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