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Post by herbiedumplings on Mar 12, 2021 12:50:18 GMT
Well we’ve passed the magical “ten games” mark with manager and DOF supposedly in alignment, so would you say we look set to sail up the divisions? Promotion hopefuls, quite possibly. But dead certs? Hardly. Wilson has already said he’s not sure he can deliver the vision in the time given for it, so I think it will be very telling if we continue with impotent upfield possession play and defensive substitutions when chasing games as we approach the business end of the season. Continuous Improvement is all about the data, but it’s also all about making plans, trying them out, reflecting on the results and making changes. Not persisting with something because it’s what you thought might be a good idea right at the start. The fact our players wear GPS trackers at training shows we now have all the gear, but results are inconclusive as to whether we have any idea... 10 games isn’t close to being long enough to judge a manager in his first senior job, that started the job mid season, with someone else’s squad, that was used to playing in a different way, in a league he hasn’t seen for years, with barely any coaching time between games, miles away from home, in the middle of a pandemic imo Kind of reads like a list of reasons not to have appointed him to me? |
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Post by kennypowers on Mar 12, 2021 12:52:10 GMT
10 games isn’t close to being long enough to judge a manager in his first senior job, that started the job mid season, with someone else’s squad, that was used to playing in a different way, in a league he hasn’t seen for years, with barely any coaching time between games, miles away from home, in the middle of a pandemic imo Kind of reads like a list of reasons not to have appointed him to me? Or perhaps a quarter of the way through next season would be a fairer time to judge. Every appointment’s a risk |
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Post by PSP on Mar 12, 2021 12:53:18 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3?
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Post by herbiedumplings on Mar 12, 2021 13:24:03 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3? Gannon has always been a side-issue for me. Treating our club as a personal Championship Manager cosplay (just as what happened in the McKnight era) is what I have the biggest objection to. We tried the “if we pretend we’re a football league club we’ll be a football league club” approach once before and it didn’t end well, and I’m struggling a little to see what’s different this time around. The only Gannon angle to this is that, if the Woking game not the Torquay game had been the first game of the season we’d be mid-table now not in the playoffs, and it’s the points that were on the board before he left that are what’s keeping us in the playoffs. |
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Post by Ngard on Mar 12, 2021 14:17:40 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3? It’s a similar amount of games Gannon got at Port Vale and they were right to sack him. I think a lot of County fans aren’t adjusting their argument for the rhetoric coming out of the club “championship in 7 years”, spending nearly a quarter of million on transfer fees etc. That’s why the Rusk appointment was so alienating as appointing a fresh as grass manager didn’t make sense. Of course, after the SW interview I think the clarity is there now and we can see why we have someone like SR. With regards to making an assessment. Think you can start forming opinions after 10 games and the so far the football served under Rusk hasn’t been great, we are averaging less PPG than Gannon, playing a rigid 4-4-2 and I have questions about whether he has a good tactical ability to make changes to the game. Do I personally think he should go after these amount of games? Of course not, he deserves to the end of the season as getting rid of another manager won’t fix the mess. If we miss out on promotion this season, should he go? Imo yes |
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Post by herbiedumplings on Mar 12, 2021 14:25:03 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3? It’s a similar amount of games Gannon got at Port Vale and they were right to sack him. I think a lot of County fans aren’t adjusting their argument for the rhetoric coming out of the club “championship in 7 years”, spending nearly a quarter of million on transfer fees etc. That’s why the Rusk appointment was so alienating as appointing a fresh as grass manager didn’t make sense. Of course, after the SW interview I think the clarity is there now and we can see why we have someone like SR. With regards to making an assessment. Think you can start forming opinions after 10 games and the so far the football served under Rusk hasn’t been great, we are averaging less PPG than Gannon, playing a rigid 4-4-2 and I have questions about whether he has a good tactical ability to make changes to the game. Do I personally think he should go after these amount of games? Of course not, he deserves to the end of the season as getting rid of another manager won’t fix the mess. If we miss out on promotion this season, should he go? Imo yes I wouldn’t disagree with that out of hand, but I would suggest that if things don’t improve this month Rusk will have had more than 1/3 of the season to prove himself in which case we would be into Sunk Costs territory. Then, the question becomes would we benefit more from giving the new-new manager some extra time to prepare for 2021/22 or would we have a better bunch of candidates to pick from in the off-season? |
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Post by PSP on Mar 12, 2021 14:25:37 GMT
The players helped him get the sack at Port Vale. Can’t say he deserved it.
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Post by Ngard on Mar 12, 2021 14:57:49 GMT
The players helped him get the sack at Port Vale. Can’t say he deserved it. To clarify I'd distinguish between the right decision based on the circumstances and whether he deserved it. It was pretty clear that the old guard at Port Vale ousted him as they never really bought into the changes he wanted to implement at Port Vale which I have no doubt would have been for the betterment of the football club. However the results weren't good enough and it in essence tanked their promotion run. I'd argue that Port Vale should not have appointed Gannon if they just wanted an easy manager to finish off Adams' work. Gannon has every right to feel completely let down by the PV board in that regard. Gannon was never going to be a type of manager happy to continue with the status quo because of a good league position. It certainly felt towards the end his position was untenable as he had 'lost' the support of the experienced players and the fans, at that point I am not quite sure what other options the board have left. The experienced players like Horsfield when they talk about Gannon just sound like overgrown man children. I don't think any of them would have been happy unless it was an Adams 2.0 who clearly let the older players do whatever they want. |
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 12, 2021 15:51:47 GMT
The players helped him get the sack at Port Vale. Can’t say he deserved it. I don't think any of them would have been happy unless it was an Adams 2.0 who clearly let the older players do whatever they want. I've got an element of sympathy with the PV players on this. I work in a group of 10 people where the engine room, perhaps four or five of us, have around 150 years of trade experience amongst us. So we know what we're doing. It works. And our numbers are good every year without exception. It works because new Managers/Directors come in, take one look at the numbers, and say "this is working...no changes necessary". If a new Manager came in and started pissing around with us four of those five would retire. And I'd follow when first able in about three years. Sometimes you don't need to fix what isn't broken. |
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Post by tgttiw on Mar 12, 2021 15:57:39 GMT
I don't think any of them would have been happy unless it was an Adams 2.0 who clearly let the older players do whatever they want. I've got an element of sympathy with the PV players on this. I work in a group of 10 people where the engine room, perhaps four or five of us, have around 150 years of trade experience amongst us. So we know what we're doing. It works. And our numbers are good every year without exception. It works because new Managers/Directors come in, take one look at the numbers, and say "this is working...no changes necessary". If a new Manager came in and started pissing around with us four of those five would retire. And I'd follow when first able in about three years. Sometimes you don't need to fix what isn't broken. You make a good point. Jim isn't like that, everytime he came in he proceeded to remove the better players. Matt hamshaw sticks in the memory, Jim isn't that type of manager. The reason why he did well at county is that he had that bit of credit in the bank which meant we were forgiving of those sort of decisions. |
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Mar 12, 2021 16:35:29 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3? It’s a similar amount of games Gannon got at Port Vale and they were right to sack him. I think a lot of County fans aren’t adjusting their argument for the rhetoric coming out of the club “championship in 7 years”, spending nearly a quarter of million on transfer fees etc. That’s why the Rusk appointment was so alienating as appointing a fresh as grass manager didn’t make sense. Of course, after the SW interview I think the clarity is there now and we can see why we have someone like SR. With regards to making an assessment. Think you can start forming opinions after 10 games and the so far the football served under Rusk hasn’t been great, we are averaging less PPG than Gannon, playing a rigid 4-4-2 and I have questions about whether he has a good tactical ability to make changes to the game. Do I personally think he should go after these amount of games? Of course not, he deserves to the end of the season as getting rid of another manager won’t fix the mess. If we miss out on promotion this season, should he go? Imo yes For me they were less right to sack him and more wrong to hire him in the first place. Vale needed a manager who was going to continue the work of the previous boss, not come in with his own ideas and try and reinvent them. Gannon and Vale were completely the wrong fit and it says a lot that Adams came back not long after. I think it’s quite clear that the reason the club sacked Jim is because he wanted things done his way, and our new DoF wanted them done his way. Personally I would rather we’d stuck with the club legend with a proven track record of year on year improvement who had previously managed us to the edge of the League One playoffs, given him the resources and the opportunity to do it again, than let the one who’s been here five minutes, the one who has never managed a football team, decide our course of action. Hasn’t happened though. I want Wilson’s plan to be a success, it needs to be for Stockport County to be a success since Directors of Football appear unsackable. I’m afraid it won’t be and oh how I want my fears to be wrong. I wish Mark Stott had come in, looked at the fact that Jim Gannon has been synonymous with success at this club for 30 years across four spells (1 as player, 3 as manager), and given him the backing he deserves. Unfortunately it’s clear Stott is just the money man, Wilson is the guy running the football side of this show. f*ck me I hope he gets it right. |
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Post by m20hatter on Mar 12, 2021 16:40:02 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3? It’s a similar amount of games Gannon got at Port Vale and they were right to sack him. I think a lot of County fans aren’t adjusting their argument for the rhetoric coming out of the club “championship in 7 years”, spending nearly a quarter of million on transfer fees etc. That’s why the Rusk appointment was so alienating as appointing a fresh as grass manager didn’t make sense. Of course, after the SW interview I think the clarity is there now and we can see why we have someone like SR. With regards to making an assessment. Think you can start forming opinions after 10 games and the so far the football served under Rusk hasn’t been great, we are averaging less PPG than Gannon, playing a rigid 4-4-2 and I have questions about whether he has a good tactical ability to make changes to the game. Do I personally think he should go after these amount of games? Of course not, he deserves to the end of the season as getting rid of another manager won’t fix the mess. If we miss out on promotion this season, should he go? Imo yes Great post. |
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Post by BWScarf on Mar 12, 2021 17:35:23 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3? It’s a similar amount of games Gannon got at Port Vale and they were right to sack him. I think a lot of County fans aren’t adjusting their argument for the rhetoric coming out of the club “championship in 7 years”, spending nearly a quarter of million on transfer fees etc. That’s why the Rusk appointment was so alienating as appointing a fresh as grass manager didn’t make sense. Of course, after the SW interview I think the clarity is there now and we can see why we have someone like SR. With regards to making an assessment. Think you can start forming opinions after 10 games and the so far the football served under Rusk hasn’t been great, we are averaging less PPG than Gannon, playing a rigid 4-4-2 and I have questions about whether he has a good tactical ability to make changes to the game. Do I personally think he should go after these amount of games? Of course not, he deserves to the end of the season as getting rid of another manager won’t fix the mess. If we miss out on promotion this season, should he go? Imo yes Regarding the Rusk stuff, yep. Bang on. It’s to Rusk’s credit that he changed things on Tuesday and got a great result. He appears to be learning. That’s a good thing. It pisses me off that we opted for someone who has to learn on the job in the circumstances we’re in, but he can only be judged on his performance. So far he’s been alright and no better. Very happy to see where we are at the end of the season, if nothing else because this season is a bit of a mess anyway (even if it ends well!) |
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 12, 2021 18:14:03 GMT
I've got an element of sympathy with the PV players on this. I work in a group of 10 people where the engine room, perhaps four or five of us, have around 150 years of trade experience amongst us. So we know what we're doing. It works. And our numbers are good every year without exception. It works because new Managers/Directors come in, take one look at the numbers, and say "this is working...no changes necessary". If a new Manager came in and started pissing around with us four of those five would retire. And I'd follow when first able in about three years. Sometimes you don't need to fix what isn't broken. You make a good point. Jim isn't like that, everytime he came in he proceeded to remove the better players. Matt hamshaw sticks in the memory, Jim isn't that type of manager. The reason why he did well at county is that he had that bit of credit in the bank which meant we were forgiving of those sort of decisions. Yep. I love the bloke to bits but I wouldn't want him coming in where I was established and performing and trying to "improve me". |
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Post by mattyovrio on Mar 12, 2021 18:21:07 GMT
Would you give Jim 10 games in his next job and fire him if he loses 3? It’s a similar amount of games Gannon got at Port Vale and they were right to sack him. I think a lot of County fans aren’t adjusting their argument for the rhetoric coming out of the club “championship in 7 years”, spending nearly a quarter of million on transfer fees etc. That’s why the Rusk appointment was so alienating as appointing a fresh as grass manager didn’t make sense. Of course, after the SW interview I think the clarity is there now and we can see why we have someone like SR. With regards to making an assessment. Think you can start forming opinions after 10 games and the so far the football served under Rusk hasn’t been great, we are averaging less PPG than Gannon, playing a rigid 4-4-2 and I have questions about whether he has a good tactical ability to make changes to the game. Do I personally think he should go after these amount of games? Of course not, he deserves to the end of the season as getting rid of another manager won’t fix the mess. If we miss out on promotion this season, should he go? Imo yes I agree with a lot of what you say. However, I think every manager deserves a close season and then a run of games to show what they can do (unless they are a complete and utter disaster like Melia or McKnight). I think from the position he inherited from JG the POs are a minimum for SR to secure the right to next season. If we don’t finish in them then he probably should go. However, I wouldn’t make promotion the trigger personally. |
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