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Post by timberwolf on Apr 21, 2021 9:41:08 GMT
I have and I'm not defending the bloke it was disgusting but I doubt he intended to kill him, I think it was Nik who explained why it was 2nd degree. taking a life is taking a life. for me there is no degree in that. selling dodgy drugs or driving past a school at say 50mph when they are coming out might not mean they fully intended doing harm. its the actions of doing those things knowing the possible consequences of the action thats important. just wonder how many who decide to carry a knife when outside their home actually intend to kill their victim or a case of shit just happens.
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Post by Henry Pratt on Apr 21, 2021 9:47:06 GMT
Takes quite a bit to make me angry but the way those cops (all of them) treated that bloke. They should all be in the dock. They started it. Escalated it. Didn't mitigate it when it was going wrong. Just makes one speechless. What a bunch of poor excuses for human beings. although george floyd had been a career criminal who would have been well known to the plod overthere to me what does anyone expect to happen if they put their knee over someones neck for 9 minutes. it cannot be proved but for me there must have been some pre meditation behind the action somewhere. doubt either in the years gone by similar incidents have never happened either and have been ignored. someone needs to police in all countries but it does make you wonder what makes some of them, not all, really tick. Fixed that for you, removing totally irrelevant content.
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Post by scfc73 on Apr 21, 2021 17:26:02 GMT
I don't know how someone can be found guilty of murder if there was no intent, I'm not backing Chauvin because kneeling on someone's neck for 9 minutes is a horrible thing to do but did he really mean to kill him? It was second degree murder, so no intent to kill but an awareness that their actions involved a serious risk of death. They reckon he'll get 12.5 years. I hope it's more like 25+
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Apr 21, 2021 17:51:42 GMT
I don't know how someone can be found guilty of murder if there was no intent, I'm not backing Chauvin because kneeling on someone's neck for 9 minutes is a horrible thing to do but did he really mean to kill him? It was second degree murder, so no intent to kill but an awareness that their actions involved a serious risk of death. They reckon he'll get 12.5 years. Correct; and specifically, guilty of second-degree unintentional murder ("[whoever] causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation' or [whoever] causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection..."). But he was also found guilty of third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. The definition of third-degree murder in Minnesota is "" without intent to effect the death of any person, caus[ing] the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." Second-degree manslaughter is, in one of its definitions, thus: "the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another". So the intent, or lack thereof, was already covered in the charge. And - just in my opinion - he was lucky to only be charged with those; but a first degree murder charge would have been hard or impossible to prove.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Apr 22, 2021 0:41:49 GMT
Takes quite a bit to make me angry but the way those cops (all of them) treated that bloke. They should all be in the dock. They started it. Escalated it. Didn't mitigate it when it was going wrong. Just makes one speechless. What a bunch of poor excuses for human beings. although george floyd had been a career criminal who would have been well known to the plod overthere to me what does anyone expect to happen if they put their knee over someones neck for 9 minutes. it cannot be proved but for me there must have been some pre meditation behind the action somewhere. doubt either in the years gone by similar incidents have never happened either and have been ignored. someone needs to police in all countries but it does make you wonder what makes some of them, not all, really tick. There probably was pre meditation but how do you prove that beyond reasonable doubt in court? The prosecution did a very good job of choosing their charges and getting him convicted of all three. He could face 40 years.
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Post by timberwolf on Apr 22, 2021 7:57:52 GMT
although george floyd had been a career criminal who would have been well known to the plod overthere to me what does anyone expect to happen if they put their knee over someones neck for 9 minutes. it cannot be proved but for me there must have been some pre meditation behind the action somewhere. doubt either in the years gone by similar incidents have never happened either and have been ignored. someone needs to police in all countries but it does make you wonder what makes some of them, not all, really tick. There probably was pre meditation but how do you prove that beyond reasonable doubt in court? The prosecution did a very good job of choosing their charges and getting him convicted of all three. He could face 40 years. suppose kneeling on someones neck for over 9 minutes was a complete accident. these people will be trained in self defence and keeping prisoners quiet. for me pre medication and complete disregard of someones life by a proffesional person is just the same.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Apr 22, 2021 13:54:35 GMT
There probably was pre meditation but how do you prove that beyond reasonable doubt in court? The prosecution did a very good job of choosing their charges and getting him convicted of all three. He could face 40 years. suppose kneeling on someones neck for over 9 minutes was a complete accident. these people will be trained in self defence and keeping prisoners quiet. for me pre medication and complete disregard of someones life by a proffesional person is just the same. I don’t disagree. But prosecutors have to prosecute what they can prove beyond doubt or run the risk of the culprit walking free. By going for the lesser 3 charges they could have him in prison for 75 years (if the judge decides to run the prison sentences consecutively and goes for the maximum sentence for each charge). It was the right decision.
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Post by mattyovrio on Apr 22, 2021 14:59:15 GMT
I don't know how someone can be found guilty of murder if there was no intent, I'm not backing Chauvin because kneeling on someone's neck for 9 minutes is a horrible thing to do but did he really mean to kill him? How can anyone know what was in the uniformed thug's dark heart ? Personally. I've watched the video in full and believe he 100% intended to kill the bloke. He put his weight on his neck and despite all protestations he kept pushing...and pushing. Until he was dead. Murder, pure and simple. Absolutely no different than if I walk up to you and shoot you in the face. Wasn’t the guy handcuffed at the time also? Absolutely no need for it and the Police Chief came out and said there was no way any officers are trained to do what he did nor any policy that marmita/encourages it.
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Post by stalybridgehatter on Apr 22, 2021 17:27:24 GMT
How can anyone know what was in the uniformed thug's dark heart ? Personally. I've watched the video in full and believe he 100% intended to kill the bloke. He put his weight on his neck and despite all protestations he kept pushing...and pushing. Until he was dead. Murder, pure and simple. Absolutely no different than if I walk up to you and shoot you in the face. Wasn’t the guy handcuffed at the time also? Absolutely no need for it and the Police Chief came out and said there was no way any officers are trained to do what he did nor any policy that marmita/encourages it. Leaving anyone lying on their chest for so long is asking for trouble, let alone kneeling on his necking. I'm guessing US cops aren't aware of positional asphyxiation?
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Post by scfc73 on Apr 22, 2021 18:03:56 GMT
How can anyone know what was in the uniformed thug's dark heart ? Personally. I've watched the video in full and believe he 100% intended to kill the bloke. He put his weight on his neck and despite all protestations he kept pushing...and pushing. Until he was dead. Murder, pure and simple. Absolutely no different than if I walk up to you and shoot you in the face. Wasn’t the guy handcuffed at the time also? Absolutely no need for it and the Police Chief came out and said there was no way any officers are trained to do what he did nor any policy that marmita/encourages it. Yep, so how they still deemed him a threat when he was lay face down with his hands cuffed behind his back is ridiculous, also the line of defence that the officer was distracted & felt threatened by the growing crowd who were becoming hostile was poor too, the crowd could see what was occurring & were pleading with the police to let the man breathe before they killed him, Bystanders could clearly see the situation developing but the 3 or 4 supposedly trained police officers were oblivious to it? simply put, there was no defence to be had for Chauvin's actions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2021 18:25:23 GMT
Let’s not forget Derek Chauvin has a history of neck kneeling. Let him rot.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Apr 22, 2021 18:28:26 GMT
Wasn’t the guy handcuffed at the time also? Absolutely no need for it and the Police Chief came out and said there was no way any officers are trained to do what he did nor any policy that marmita/encourages it. Leaving anyone lying on their chest for so long is asking for trouble, let alone kneeling on his necking. I'm guessing US cops aren't aware of positional asphyxiation? They are aware. But this officer did not care.
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Post by mattyovrio on Apr 23, 2021 6:58:48 GMT
Wasn’t the guy handcuffed at the time also? Absolutely no need for it and the Police Chief came out and said there was no way any officers are trained to do what he did nor any policy that marmita/encourages it. Yep, so how they still deemed him a threat when he was lay face down with his hands cuffed behind his back is ridiculous, also the line of defence that the officer was distracted & felt threatened by the growing crowd who were becoming hostile was poor too, the crowd could see what was occurring & were pleading with the police to let the man breathe before they killed him, Bystanders could clearly see the situation developing but the 3 or 4 supposedly trained police officers were oblivious to it? simply put, there was no defence to be had for Chauvin's actions. Agreed. If this crime was committed by the man in the street and those in his gang had just stood around while their mate did the killing, wouldn’t they have been on trial for a joint enterprise killing? Did anything happen to those officers who stood by and allowed Chauvin to do this? Will anything happen to them now he has been found guilty of murder?
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Post by timberwolf on Apr 23, 2021 8:40:28 GMT
suppose kneeling on someones neck for over 9 minutes was a complete accident. these people will be trained in self defence and keeping prisoners quiet. for me pre medication and complete disregard of someones life by a proffesional person is just the same. I don’t disagree. But prosecutors have to prosecute what they can prove beyond doubt or run the risk of the culprit walking free. By going for the lesser 3 charges they could have him in prison for 75 years (if the judge decides to run the prison sentences consecutively and goes for the maximum sentence for each charge). It was the right decision. suppose at the end of the day getting him banged up for what in reality is for life is the best outcome. doubt he would have gone free though on any technicality as it would have caused nearly a civil war overthere.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Apr 23, 2021 14:45:53 GMT
I don’t disagree. But prosecutors have to prosecute what they can prove beyond doubt or run the risk of the culprit walking free. By going for the lesser 3 charges they could have him in prison for 75 years (if the judge decides to run the prison sentences consecutively and goes for the maximum sentence for each charge). It was the right decision. suppose at the end of the day getting him banged up for what in reality is for life is the best outcome. doubt he would have gone free though on any technicality as it would have caused nearly a civil war overthere. He absolutely could still go free. They’re going to appeal and his defence team are going to lean hard into the media surrounding it. The judge himself said that the case was under threat from the circus going on and the trial could have collapsed several times.
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