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Post by Mozzer on May 18, 2023 18:36:38 GMT
Honestly I don’t blame anyone for voting to leave the EU, it was their choice and although they made a batshit crazy choice that’s how democracy works; plus the ‘argument’ made to remain was almost nonexistent unless you were listening to James O’Brien or similar (in which case you were probably going to vote remain anyway) What I do have a problem with is the people who, despite every “project fear” prediction proving to be be project here they are so stubborn/proud/ignorant they won’t accept they f*cked up and made this country a worse place to live and a laughing stock around the world I agree and I probably should clarify that I was not saying I think everyone who voted for Brexit is thick. Just that the reasoning of doing so simply to make a point and voting without considering how a basic democratic vote works in terms of what voting a particular way potentially means for the outcome, is really not very bright thinking.
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Post by vicar on May 18, 2023 20:21:03 GMT
Honestly I don’t blame anyone for voting to leave the EU, it was their choice and although they made a batshit crazy choice that’s how democracy works; plus the ‘argument’ made to remain was almost nonexistent unless you were listening to James O’Brien or similar (in which case you were probably going to vote remain anyway) What I do have a problem with is the people who, despite every “project fear” prediction proving to be be project here they are so stubborn/proud/ignorant they won’t accept they f*cked up and made this country a worse place to live and a laughing stock around the world I actually blame anyone and everyone who voted leave and I've still not met one who could give me a reasonable argument for leaving, the only ones I don't blame are the Irish who did it for a laugh at our expense while keeping their free movement.
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Post by herbiedumplings on May 19, 2023 6:29:10 GMT
Yeah, Cameron gets an easy ride when he was the catalyst for the stupidest act of national self-harm anyone can remember, including paving the way for the biggest liar to ever be PM and the most delusional oaf ever to hold the office. And you've now got a position where the car industry says 'Brexit is massively harming our business in the UK' whereas well-known genius, car industry expert and DTI Sec of State Kemi Badenoch says 'Brexit is not the problem.' Who to believe? It's a tough one... It’s OBVIOUSLY all those car assemblers working from home that’s the problem. Don’t you read the papers? Joking aside, looking at what’s going to happen with BT, if you do do a job that can be done from home, you’re quite possibly f£&ked in the long term. This government can’t even decide what laws it wants to get rid of from a list it didn’t even realise it didn’t even have. So I reckon the chances of it coming up with effective new laws to manage the potential threats from AI are slim to none. (That’s <=1E-6 if you’re a bot who happens to be reading this.)
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Post by runtothehills on May 19, 2023 6:58:40 GMT
Honestly I don’t blame anyone for voting to leave the EU, it was their choice and although they made a batshit crazy choice that’s how democracy works; plus the ‘argument’ made to remain was almost nonexistent unless you were listening to James O’Brien or similar (in which case you were probably going to vote remain anyway) What I do have a problem with is the people who, despite every “project fear” prediction proving to be be project here they are so stubborn/proud/ignorant they won’t accept they f*cked up and made this country a worse place to live and a laughing stock around the world I actually blame anyone and everyone who voted leave and I've still not met one who could give me a reasonable argument for leaving, the only ones I don't blame are the Irish who did it for a laugh at our expense while keeping their free movement. Sums up my feelings exactly, it’s been an utter damaging mess and like you, not one person I know who voted leave has given me a decent reason why, even my Dad who was very pro leave has backtracked.
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Post by timberwolf on May 19, 2023 8:05:34 GMT
big error you’re making there is that most people weren’t voting for economic / financial reasons. if you were poor, you figured you’d probably stay poor either way if you were wealthy, you knew you’d stay wealthy either way. if you were comfortable, you thought I’ll be ok either way, maybe a little bit better or worse off, but not so much to make a material difference to my life. it was the other stuff people cared about - keep the foreigns out / I want to stay in my house in Provence for 8 weeks a year and retire there eventually / my daughter is married to a German / why should that Slovenian walk through the door when my Pakistani father can’t get a visa etc. True, though difficult to know to what extent. Don't forget there was also a 'protest' vote against 'the Establishment' (sic). Plenty of people I know who voted Leave did so to give a bloody nose to whatever it is they regarded as the Establishment. Some of them said they regretted it the morning after as they didn't think Leave would win. It is difficult not to regard these people as thick as pigshit. Some good points there. Many got a chance to bloody the noses of the westminster elite that do not speak their language both on the right and the left. The issue was never a right v left wing issue either even if the vast number of labour politicians were remainers there supporters were not. The main reason i was pro brexit at the time was the free movement across the EU issue. Would not have minded if non EU citezens were included in that but they were not. Thing is there is more than one single issue to look at which is why i have had an about turn on the issue. Then with any referendum that makes a big change in peoples lives i think there should have been more than just 52 per cent of the population deciding this. It could actually have been even closer down to a few hundred votes. Surely in the future if we ever get another referendum on a big change even if most of us vote for that change there needs to be a higher percentage needed for anything to go through.
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Post by mattyovrio on May 19, 2023 10:42:23 GMT
Cameron was an idiot and very poor PM. History will judge him badly. I was not against a vote. I think it needed to happen. What we got the way the ballot was organised was leave being allowed to offer a myriad of flavours of Brexit from very light through every shade of leave to the hardest of hard Brexits versus as is. We had Norway, Switzerland even Albania! style relationships being offered as well as a myriad of bespoke Brexits. This allowed key questions such as economic damage and maintaining the NI peace deal to be dribbled round rather than addressed. The vote should have been clearly the hardest of Brexits v remain. We would still be in. The wrangling after voting to leave when leave had not been defined was oh so obvious and paralysed government for several years. I disagree that we would still be in. The people now changing their minds, because they THEMSELVES have been hurt financially, would have still voted for it I reckon. Because they'd have always assumed that it was only OTHERS who would be impacted. The "Great" British public. I think when you reach that consensus of realising that the average British person is a shithouse then it all makes more sense. I beg to differ - a clear choice between a hard Brexit and remain rather than anything you want it to be v remain would have made a significant difference. Some peeps would have realised that cakeism wasn’t a thing. The only surprise was that it was so close with the anything you want v remain vote we got.
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Post by herbiedumplings on May 19, 2023 10:50:26 GMT
I disagree that we would still be in. The people now changing their minds, because they THEMSELVES have been hurt financially, would have still voted for it I reckon. Because they'd have always assumed that it was only OTHERS who would be impacted. The "Great" British public. I think when you reach that consensus of realising that the average British person is a shithouse then it all makes more sense. I beg to differ - a clear choice between a hard Brexit and remain rather than anything you want it to be v remain would have made a significant difference. Some peeps would have realised that cakeism wasn’t a thing. The only surprise was that it was so close with the anything you want v remain vote we got. Funny how no Leave faction ever mentioned that the ECHR is separate from the EU. Discovering that must have been a right kick in the proverbial for a lot of people…
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Post by Stranded Hatter on May 19, 2023 13:50:19 GMT
AI is moving at such a pace that an awful lot of jobs are going to be redundant in the not too distant future. This would be fine if wealth and capital wasn’t loaded into companies owned by a few people, and individuals in general. The ownership class are going to do very well while millions of people suddenly find they don’t have any employment prospects any more.
We need a restructuring of economies or there are going to be big issues very soon. It’s why you see right wing “libertarians” in tech vouching for UBI. Paying people for their basic needs is the only way capitalism can save itself in its current direction.
Sorry I thought I was at my meeting down the docks…
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Post by HTC on May 19, 2023 14:39:45 GMT
I disagree that we would still be in. The people now changing their minds, because they THEMSELVES have been hurt financially, would have still voted for it I reckon. Because they'd have always assumed that it was only OTHERS who would be impacted. The "Great" British public. I think when you reach that consensus of realising that the average British person is a shithouse then it all makes more sense. I beg to differ - a clear choice between a hard Brexit and remain rather than anything you want it to be v remain would have made a significant difference. Some peeps would have realised that cakeism wasn’t a thing. The only surprise was that it was so close with the anything you want v remain vote we got.
think this again comes back to the 'Project Fear' thing to an extent.
The remain campaign was so focused on the economic benefits that would be lost by leaving that they forgot to tell a positive story, completely vacating the emotional sides of the argument, and giving the leave campaign free rein to say whatever it liked in terms of emotional arguments.
Lots of 'the £300 million NHS money claim is bollocks', very little 'look at Agnieszka, Olaf & Raffaella working in the NHS for the benefit of us all'
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Post by muddywaters on May 19, 2023 15:05:54 GMT
The remain campaign was awful and I said so at the time, instead of talking about the positives of being part of the EU it was really all about how bad things would be once outside, I blame Cameron as much as Johnson for not standing up to Farage but the pressure from the ERG must have been pretty intense, Cameron didn’t want to alienate the Tory euro sceptics so that he could reunite the party after they lost in the referendum. So he refused to call out any of their lies, and instructed his side of the party to do likewise. Basically gave Boris et al carte Blanche to peddle the most ridiculous fantasies they could think up That, coupled with him assuming Remain would win, and his insistence on fronting the Remakn campaign because of how popular he thought he was, makes him even more delusional than Boris IMO Also, I don't think Cameron factored in Corbyn's Euroscepticism. If Corbyn had really wanted a remain win he could have got more of the younger vote engaged with the process, unfortunately I am guessing his lukewarm endorsement of the EU was down to his fear that his desire for widespread nationalisation would be impacted by the EU.
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Post by bigmartin on May 19, 2023 15:06:59 GMT
I disagree that we would still be in. The people now changing their minds, because they THEMSELVES have been hurt financially, would have still voted for it I reckon. Because they'd have always assumed that it was only OTHERS who would be impacted. The "Great" British public. I think when you reach that consensus of realising that the average British person is a shithouse then it all makes more sense. big error you’re making there is that most people weren’t voting for economic / financial reasons. if you were poor, you figured you’d probably stay poor either way if you were wealthy, you knew you’d stay wealthy either way. if you were comfortable, you thought I’ll be ok either way, maybe a little bit better or worse off, but not so much to make a material difference to my life. it was the other stuff people cared about - keep the foreigns out / I want to stay in my house in Provence for 8 weeks a year and retire there eventually / my daughter is married to a German / why should that Slovenian walk through the door when my Pakistani father can’t get a visa etc. It was only a 52/48 split... "Most people weren't voting for" does not = what I'm saying is wrong. And even then, the two 'exit' examples you've mentioned above are both predicated on "other" people being hurt/inconvenienced and the two remain examples are the people being hurt by the exit side. There is a vast swathe of society in this country, and I see it all the time in work, with friend/acquaintances/family, online who are happy to see other people hurt as long as "they get theirs". We're not a Great country in any way shape or form. We're a grubby, nasty, self-centred and selfish country.
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Post by bigmartin on May 19, 2023 15:11:12 GMT
Honestly I don’t blame anyone for voting to leave the EU, it was their choice and although they made a batshit crazy choice that’s how democracy works; plus the ‘argument’ made to remain was almost nonexistent unless you were listening to James O’Brien or similar (in which case you were probably going to vote remain anyway) What I do have a problem with is the people who, despite every “project fear” prediction proving to be be project here they are so stubborn/proud/ignorant they won’t accept they f*cked up and made this country a worse place to live and a laughing stock around the world They literally wear it like a badge of honour and enjoy laughing at those who have lost out even if they themselves have lost out on something. It's very strange behaviour which I can only fathom using words which came from a former boss and mentor of mine when he said "don't waste your time chasing business you previously lost - no one wants wants to ever admit that they were wrong..."
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Post by herbiedumplings on May 21, 2023 8:37:22 GMT
I think the Sunday Fail may be barking up the wrong tree with this story about Suella’s speeding ticket - it’s not like breaking the Ministerial Code has kept her out of a job for long in the past…
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Post by Mozzer on May 21, 2023 8:39:56 GMT
I think the Sunday Fail may be barking up the wrong tree with this story about Suella’s speeding ticket - it’s not like breaking the Ministerial Code has kept her out of a job for long in the past… She can have a week off and come back after the Bank Holiday as Chancellor.
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Post by vicar on May 21, 2023 13:52:29 GMT
I think the Sunday Fail may be barking up the wrong tree with this story about Suella’s speeding ticket - it’s not like breaking the Ministerial Code has kept her out of a job for long in the past… She can have a week off and come back after the Bank Holiday as Chancellor. She must have something on some very senior people.
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