|
Post by HTC on Jul 22, 2020 11:23:21 GMT
Indeed
The only morally correct choice is to support the wing of the labour party that has just had to pay out £800k in costs relating to assorted whistleblowers and antisemitism.
Anything else means you're an evil gammon racist, and probably really stupid too.
|
|
|
Post by Henry Pratt on Jul 22, 2020 11:36:04 GMT
Thank God for the British. It is good to know democratic laws still apply. Those that do not vote Conservative- such as me, should be rounded up and shot! What makes you think Britain's democratic?
|
|
|
Post by HTC on Jul 22, 2020 11:40:56 GMT
What makes you think it isn't?
We're generally around 10th - 15th in the world by most measures of 'freedom', narrowly behind the Scandinavians, Australia, NZ, Canada and a couple of other north European countries.
|
|
|
Post by Henry Pratt on Jul 22, 2020 13:26:12 GMT
What makes you think it isn't? We're generally around 10th - 15th in the world by most measures of 'freedom', narrowly behind the Scandinavians, Australia, NZ, Canada and a couple of other north European countries. We weren't talking about "freedom," we were talking about "democracy."
|
|
|
Post by Henry Pratt on Jul 22, 2020 13:34:53 GMT
But, okay. How about this:
Our electoral system grants *absolute* power to a government based on as little as 35% of the vote (22% of the electorate).
In a GE, the *vast* majority of people's votes make no difference whatsoever to the result in their constituency or, by extension, the national result. Our government is planning to make it more difficult to vote, citing non-existent electoral fraud as the reason.
Our Head of State is chosen by birth (our next Head of State but two was born seven years ago).
There are lots of other points (see the control of the media by tax exiles), but I think they're enough on their own, frankly.
|
|
|
Post by HTC on Jul 22, 2020 13:50:14 GMT
The mention of “absolute power” suggests a fundamental misreading of the devolved governments in Scotland / Wales / NI.
There is also a system of checks and balances in place, such as the independent judiciary and (for all its many flaws) the House of Lords. We also have a free press (anything from the Canary to the Telegraph) and all those sorts of things that you don’t find in half the world.
Even speaking in terms of electoral politics, various forms of PR are used in some elections, and the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament.
It may not be providing the result you want, but I’m struggling to see how it’s suddenly akin to Russia, let alone North Korea.
|
|
|
Post by Henry Pratt on Jul 22, 2020 15:18:39 GMT
The mention of “absolute power” suggests a fundamental misreading of the devolved governments in Scotland / Wales / NI. There is also a system of checks and balances in place, such as the independent judiciary and (for all its many flaws) the House of Lords. We also have a free press (anything from the Canary to the Telegraph) and all those sorts of things that you don’t find in half the world. Even speaking in terms of electoral politics, various forms of PR are used in some elections, and the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament. It may not be providing the result you want, but I’m struggling to see how it’s suddenly akin to Russia, let alone North Korea. Again, arguing against a point I didn't make. "I’m struggling to see how it’s suddenly akin to Russia, let alone North Korea" Where tf did that come from? Pointless continuing the discussion tbh.
|
|
|
Post by HTC on Jul 22, 2020 15:34:03 GMT
Some might say that arguing with anyone seriously claiming that Britain isn’t democratic is equally pointless.
|
|
|
Post by Cale Green Hatter on Jul 22, 2020 15:49:03 GMT
|
|
|
Post by kennypowers on Jul 22, 2020 16:04:35 GMT
Funny how 340 Tory MP's voting against clause 17 of the trade bill which protects the NHS from being sold of to international corporations, hasn't made the news either. In fact, the house of commons tweet has now been deleted
|
|
Fez
Frequenter
Posts: 473
|
Post by Fez on Jul 22, 2020 17:44:42 GMT
There is also a system of checks and balances in place, such as the independent judiciary and (for all its many flaws) the House of Lords. We also have a free press (anything from the Canary to the Telegraph) and all those sorts of things that you don’t find in half the world. Even speaking in terms of electoral politics, various forms of PR are used in some elections, and the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament. It may not be providing the result you want, but I’m struggling to see how it’s suddenly akin to Russia, let alone North Korea. " (...for all its many flaws) the House of Lords..." Primary amongst which is that it is appointed, not elected. A pretty fundamental flaw in a democracy, wouldn't you say? It includes 92 hereditary peers, only one of whom is a woman. And 26 bishops, for goodness sake (all Church of England). Be careful lauding the second chamber and becoming complacent about an independent judiciary. As the USA is currently proving, that can go south pretty quickly. " ...the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament." Which is kind of odd in a parliamentary democracy.
|
|
|
Post by vicar on Jul 22, 2020 18:29:43 GMT
Some might say that arguing with anyone seriously claiming that Britain isn’t democratic is equally pointless. I'd argue it's not a democracy when my vote doesn't count, I can accept having less representation than those with the most votes but my vote was effectively binned.
|
|
|
Post by Henry Pratt on Jul 22, 2020 19:14:02 GMT
Some might say that arguing with anyone seriously claiming that Britain isn’t democratic is equally pointless. I made a point about democracy, you countered by talking about freedom, which I hadn't mentioned. I then gave you examples of why I think it's debatable at best to claim we're democratic; you countered by talking about Russia and North Korea. I'm happy to have a debate with anyone who's reasonable in return but it's pointless if you're just going to attack straw men.
|
|
|
Post by Henry Pratt on Jul 22, 2020 19:17:12 GMT
There is also a system of checks and balances in place, such as the independent judiciary and (for all its many flaws) the House of Lords. We also have a free press (anything from the Canary to the Telegraph) and all those sorts of things that you don’t find in half the world. Even speaking in terms of electoral politics, various forms of PR are used in some elections, and the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament. It may not be providing the result you want, but I’m struggling to see how it’s suddenly akin to Russia, let alone North Korea. " (...for all its many flaws) the House of Lords..." Primary amongst which is that it is appointed, not elected. A pretty fundamental flaw in a democracy, wouldn't you say? It includes 92 hereditary peers, only one of whom is a woman. And 26 bishops, for goodness sake (all Church of England). Be careful lauding the second chamber and becoming complacent about an independent judiciary. As the USA is currently proving, that can go south pretty quickly. " ...the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament." Which is kind of odd in a parliamentary democracy. Yeah I forgot the HoL in my top of the head list. Christ alive, it's democratic to appoint former cricketers to the legislature is it..?
|
|
|
Post by HTC on Jul 22, 2020 19:21:34 GMT
There is also a system of checks and balances in place, such as the independent judiciary and (for all its many flaws) the House of Lords. We also have a free press (anything from the Canary to the Telegraph) and all those sorts of things that you don’t find in half the world. Even speaking in terms of electoral politics, various forms of PR are used in some elections, and the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament. It may not be providing the result you want, but I’m struggling to see how it’s suddenly akin to Russia, let alone North Korea. " (...for all its many flaws) the House of Lords..." Primary amongst which is that it is appointed, not elected. A pretty fundamental flaw in a democracy, wouldn't you say? It includes 92 hereditary peers, only one of whom is a woman. And 26 bishops, for goodness sake (all Church of England). Be careful lauding the second chamber and becoming complacent about an independent judiciary. As the USA is currently proving, that can go south pretty quickly. " ...the two biggest issues in recent years have been settled by referendum, rather than in parliament." Which is kind of odd in a parliamentary democracy. As I said, the House of Lords is flawed (and I’d agree the two reasons you outline are the two biggest) and it’s certainly not something you’d create now if you were designing a democracy from scratch. However, in practice, what it does is provide a role of additional oversight, and effectively allows expert scrutiny, and acts as a check upon the executive. A second elected chamber would potentially provide a greater concentration of power in the hands of one party, so isn’t without its own issues with regard to the role of scrutiny, but I’d broadly agree that there is a need to reform the current system, particularly with regard to the hereditary peers. The judicial situation is again different from the US - appointments are far less political, and there is the additional layer of supranational justice from the ECHR (something that won’t be affected by Brexit, no matter how many Tories wish otherwise) On the referendums, I agree they are a poor fit with our unwritten constitution. However, they do offer the chance for everyone’s votes to count equally, which seems the main objection to our current system in this thread.
|
|