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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 13:13:35 GMT
This is an extremely difficult topic, but I wouldn't hold much store by who is arguing against it. Look who else is arguing against it - lots of them have a poor record on equality matters, many of which you'd go nowhere near on matters of social liberalism. Also look at who is on the trans side of the debate - lots of feminists and lots of people who have been on the wrong end of homophobia. I say that not to argue that this means they must be right, merely to highlight that saying some lesbians oppose (some) trans rights is not a strong argument in support of that position.
If you're playing the 'guilt by association' card, it's only fair to point out you've also got lots of equally dispicable characters like Isla Bryson / Stephanie Hayden / Aimee Challenor etc. on the trans side.
it's the left wing / radical feminist arguments that I find most compelling personally, although I'd agree lots of right wingers have jumped onto the bandwagon as soon as they saw a chance.
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Post by Count de Stockport on Jul 25, 2024 13:16:37 GMT
So many parallels with how gay people were treated in the past [edit] and continue to be treated even today Key difference is that the demands of gay people didn’t affect anyone else. Quite different from the 51% of people affected by the demands of the trans lobby. It’s not for no reason that many of the most persuasive arguments come from lesbians. And how do the demands of the trans lobby affect the 51%? Because if you’re going to say ‘trans women raping cis women in toilets’, then you’re just resurrecting the ‘gay men raping straight men in toilets’ line
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Mozzer
Contributor
Posts: 1,298
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Post by Mozzer on Jul 25, 2024 13:24:06 GMT
That's my point though. I think arguments should stand and fall on their own, not by who's advocating them.
Let's also be under no illusions that this is now a culture war vehicle. Trans issues have been there for a very long time - this isn't new stuff (though is no easier for it). In amongst all of this you will a have a lot of trans people who just want to live their lives and there's a lot more shit flying around than there needs to be. It feels like it's no coincidence that it is now a cause celebre for certain parts of our more authoritarian elements of society. Again, that doesn't mean some concerns aren't genuine and in need of careful assessment. But there's a lot of heat and not a lot of light and that is detrimental to the people in the middle of it all trying to deal with something that is undoubtedly difficult enough as it is.
Edit: Apologies. Was a reply to HTC.
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 13:28:55 GMT
Key difference is that the demands of gay people didn’t affect anyone else. Quite different from the 51% of people affected by the demands of the trans lobby. It’s not for no reason that many of the most persuasive arguments come from lesbians. And how do the demands of the trans lobby affect the 51%? Because if you’re going to say ‘trans women raping cis women in toilets’, then you’re just resurrecting the ‘gay men raping straight men in toilets’ line a few examples.
we've been discussing sport in detail above, we've obliquely touched on prisons with the references to Isla Bryson and other male rapists being incarcerated in female prisons. Alison Bailey, Maya Forstater and others have been sacked from their jobs (and then received hefty wrongful dismissal payouts) for gender identity related issues Many Rape Crisis Centres / domestic violence refuges are now unable to guarantee female only spaces for abused women (cf Sarah Summers in Brighton / Mridul Wadwha in Edinburgh)
lesbians are being told they are 'sexual racists' because they won't suck cock (cf Stonewall's Nancy Kelly)
On your specific line, I'd say three things. One would be to take a quick look at the assault statistics comparing single sex facilities with unisex facilities. The other would be to consider Muslim women / women who have suffered abuse / women with learning difficulties etc who may not feel comfortable sharing facilities with males. Their rights matter too. Third Spaces seem a very obvious solution here, providing both a separate safe space for women, and a safe space for males who feel scared in the gents but I know they're roundly rejected every time they're suggested
None of this is to say that trans people do not face issues too - I'm just once again pointing out there is a massive conflict of rights here that needs resolving. It's really not as simple as 'evil right wing bigots hate difference' vs 'vilified transwomen who just want to pee'
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Post by nelly on Jul 25, 2024 13:46:45 GMT
And how do the demands of the trans lobby affect the 51%? Because if you’re going to say ‘trans women raping cis women in toilets’, then you’re just resurrecting the ‘gay men raping straight men in toilets’ line a few examples.
we've been discussing sport in detail above, we've obliquely touched on prisons with the references to Isla Bryson and other male rapists being incarcerated in female prisons. Alison Bailey, Maya Forstater and others have been sacked from their jobs (and then received hefty wrongful dismissal payouts) for gender identity related issues Many Rape Crisis Centres / domestic violence refuges are now unable to guarantee female only spaces for abused women (cf Sarah Summers in Brighton / Mridul Wadwha in Edinburgh)
lesbians are being told they are 'sexual racists' because they won't suck cock (cf Stonewall's Nancy Riley)
On your specific line, I'd say three things. One would be to take a quick look at the assault statistics comparing single sex facilities with unisex facilities. The other would be to consider Muslim women / women who have suffered abuse / women with learning difficulties etc who may not feel comfortable sharing facilities with males. Their rights matter too. Third Spaces seem a very obvious solution here, providing both a separate safe space for women, and a safe space for males who feel scared in the gents but I know they're roundly rejected every time they're suggested
None of this is to say that trans people do not face issues too - I'm just once again pointing out there is a massive conflict of rights here that needs resolving. It's really not as simple as 'evil right wing bigots hate difference' vs 'vilified transwomen who just want to pee'
Anyway, can anyone recommend a good Plumber.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 14:03:49 GMT
a few examples.
we've been discussing sport in detail above, we've obliquely touched on prisons with the references to Isla Bryson and other male rapists being incarcerated in female prisons. Alison Bailey, Maya Forstater and others have been sacked from their jobs (and then received hefty wrongful dismissal payouts) for gender identity related issues Many Rape Crisis Centres / domestic violence refuges are now unable to guarantee female only spaces for abused women (cf Sarah Summers in Brighton / Mridul Wadwha in Edinburgh)
lesbians are being told they are 'sexual racists' because they won't suck cock (cf Stonewall's Nancy Riley)
On your specific line, I'd say three things. One would be to take a quick look at the assault statistics comparing single sex facilities with unisex facilities. The other would be to consider Muslim women / women who have suffered abuse / women with learning difficulties etc who may not feel comfortable sharing facilities with males. Their rights matter too. Third Spaces seem a very obvious solution here, providing both a separate safe space for women, and a safe space for males who feel scared in the gents but I know they're roundly rejected every time they're suggested
None of this is to say that trans people do not face issues too - I'm just once again pointing out there is a massive conflict of rights here that needs resolving. It's really not as simple as 'evil right wing bigots hate difference' vs 'vilified transwomen who just want to pee'
Anyway, can anyone recommend a good Plumber. There aren’t any. Because Brexit.
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tvor
Frequenter
Posts: 185
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Post by tvor on Jul 25, 2024 14:37:23 GMT
I know it's not political, but it made me chuckle and thought I'd lighten the mood a little......
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Post by Nik on Jul 25, 2024 14:55:17 GMT
I know it's not political, but it made me chuckle and thought I'd lighten the mood a little...... Is the funny bit because someone's drawn long hair on his head?
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Post by Lee on Jul 25, 2024 14:59:40 GMT
I know it's not political, but it made me chuckle and thought I'd lighten the mood a little...... Is the funny bit because someone's drawn long hair on his head? I wondered the same but if so, didnt get the funny part of it. Just assumed there was something on the text (that couldnt be made any bigger) but apart from that, its a massive tumbleweed moment.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Jul 25, 2024 15:00:49 GMT
For the record, I think trans people and sport is far from simple - there’s no easy solution here; and besides, it doesn’t seem as important as other challenges facing trans people It’s a distraction from the actual real problems facing real trans people.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Jul 25, 2024 15:07:06 GMT
I do wonder how many of those commenting have actually spent much time talking to trans people. A hugely marginalised part of society who are frequently told they're wrong or they don't exist or they're somehow some evil sex pest...and you wonder why suicide and severe mental health issues are so much more prevelent than in the rest of society. These are people who have grown up not understanding who they are, often hating themselves and fear that if they come out they will be rejected by friends, family and wider society. Transitioning takes years and is not easy very few are able to go through with it due to the cost and multiple operations involved. Do you really think that someone would go through that because it might be slightly easier to win a shiny medal! I had a friend who I met after she had transitioned. Had no idea until a mutual friend told me as a way of highlighting just how much more she fit her “new” identity. She was a ray of sunshine in every room I ever saw her in. She still ended up taking her own life because of the abuse she endured.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Jul 25, 2024 15:42:03 GMT
Is the funny bit because someone's drawn long hair on his head? I wondered the same but if so, didnt get the funny part of it. Just assumed there was something on the text (that couldnt be made any bigger) but apart from that, its a massive tumbleweed moment. I joined the Facebook group and the caption is “I’d just like to introduce myself and share this photo I drew on of James McSpud biting off more than he can chew.“ I still don’t get it either
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 15:42:48 GMT
I wondered the same but if so, didnt get the funny part of it. Just assumed there was something on the text (that couldnt be made any bigger) but apart from that, its a massive tumbleweed moment. I joined the Facebook group and the caption is “I’d just like to introduce myself and share this photo I drew on of James McSpud biting off more than he can chew.“ I still don’t get it either KTHXBAI
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Post by Nik on Jul 25, 2024 16:15:44 GMT
I wondered the same but if so, didnt get the funny part of it. Just assumed there was something on the text (that couldnt be made any bigger) but apart from that, its a massive tumbleweed moment. I joined the Facebook group and the caption is “I’d just like to introduce myself and share this photo I drew on of James McSpud biting off more than he can chew.“ I still don’t get it either If that's a sign of what to expect in that group, I genuinely don't know how I'd cope with such top-level, uncensored EFL League One banter.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 16:37:59 GMT
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