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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 11:23:47 GMT
There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity. this is the whole point of the debate though.
Biological Sex and Gender Identity are in deep conflict in many areas.
Everyone has a biological sex, not everyone has a gender identity.
I don't believe in gender identity and see it as a load of (largely negative) culture bound stereotypes, but I accept that others feel a deep sense of gender.
A similar thing in that I'm agnostic, but accept that millions of people believe in Islam / Christianity etc.
The question is how you manage those conflicts of rights, and to what extent we need to rearrange society around some people's perceived gender identity, even if it directly conflicts with other established rights, particularly things women's rights / freedom of belief etc.
Sorry, but everyone has a gender identity; it’s just that for some people it doesn’t (always and/or neatly) align with their biological sex. [edit:] I agree it’s a question of how different groups’ rights are managed, even though we clearly disagree where the balance lies.
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 11:32:10 GMT
this is the whole point of the debate though.
Biological Sex and Gender Identity are in deep conflict in many areas.
Everyone has a biological sex, not everyone has a gender identity.
I don't believe in gender identity and see it as a load of (largely negative) culture bound stereotypes, but I accept that others feel a deep sense of gender.
A similar thing in that I'm agnostic, but accept that millions of people believe in Islam / Christianity etc.
The question is how you manage those conflicts of rights, and to what extent we need to rearrange society around some people's perceived gender identity, even if it directly conflicts with other established rights, particularly things women's rights / freedom of belief etc.
Sorry, but everyone has a gender identity; it’s just that for some people it doesn’t (always and/or neatly) align with their biological sex. [edit:] I agree it’s a question of how different groups’ rights are managed, even though we clearly disagree where the balance lies.
I'm telling you right now - I do not have a 'gender identity', so now you know at least one person without one.
I do have a biological sex.
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Post by Waldorf on Jul 25, 2024 11:34:04 GMT
I'll be honest and say I don't understand a lot of it. To be frank I've just had to look up CIS. One thing I would say though is I'm not sure it's that men should dictate what should or shouldn't happen in women's changing rooms or sports, so I'll keep my beak out.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 11:38:19 GMT
Sorry, but everyone has a gender identity; it’s just that for some people it doesn’t (always and/or neatly) align with their biological sex. [edit:] I agree it’s a question of how different groups’ rights are managed, even though we clearly disagree where the balance lies.
I'm telling you right now - I do not have a 'gender identity', so now you know at least one person without one.
I do have a biological sex.
Psychologists would disagree, but you’re right: it’s not my place to dictate how you see yourself. Apologies.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 11:39:39 GMT
I'll be honest and say I don't understand a lot of it. To be frank I've just had to look up CIS. One thing I would say though is I'm not sure it's that men should dictate what should or shouldn't happen in women's changing rooms or sports, so I'll keep my beak out. Some of my best days were when I worked up on the 13th floor at CIS. Great place to be (back then, anyway…)
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 11:43:21 GMT
I'm telling you right now - I do not have a 'gender identity', so now you know at least one person without one.
I do have a biological sex.
Psychologists would disagree, but you’re right: it’s not my place to dictate how you see yourself. Apologies.
to be more precise.
I would agree I conform with many of the gender stereotypes associated with my biological sex (I'm (male coded) arguing on a (male coded) forum dedicated to (male coded) football for (male coded swearing) f*cks sake!). I do not agree those constitute a 'gender identity'
When I was a teenage goth with long hair, and occasional eye liner and nail varnish, I was still male, even if I was not 'performing masculinity' or however you want to phrase it in gender identity terms.
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Post by Count de Stockport on Jul 25, 2024 11:44:42 GMT
Sorry, but everyone has a gender identity; it’s just that for some people it doesn’t (always and/or neatly) align with their biological sex. [edit:] I agree it’s a question of how different groups’ rights are managed, even though we clearly disagree where the balance lies.
I'm telling you right now - I do not have a 'gender identity', so now you know at least one person without one.
I do have a biological sex.
So you’re agender/neutrois?
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 11:48:16 GMT
I'm telling you right now - I do not have a 'gender identity', so now you know at least one person without one.
I do have a biological sex.
So you’re agender/neutrois? No.
because that implies I believe in the concept of gender identity, but think I am so unique and special that the concept doesn't apply to me.
I accept others believe in gender identity, I'm just saying I don't believe in it any more than I believe in God / Mohammed / Yahweh etc.
edit: and I also thought other people had no right to dictate other people's gender anyway? Isn't that the foundational point of the whole belief system?
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Post by Count de Stockport on Jul 25, 2024 11:54:02 GMT
So you’re agender/neutrois? No.
because that implies I believe in the concept of gender identity, but think I am so unique and special that the concept doesn't apply to me.
I accept others believe in gender identity, I'm just saying I don't believe in it any more than I believe in God / Mohammed / Yahweh etc.
edit: and I also thought other people had no right to dictate other people's gender anyway? Isn't that the foundational point of the whole belief system?
You can’t claim to have no gender identity then rebuke me for trying to dictate your gender identity
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Post by Doofenschmirtz on Jul 25, 2024 11:56:35 GMT
I do wonder how many of those commenting have actually spent much time talking to trans people.
A hugely marginalised part of society who are frequently told they're wrong or they don't exist or they're somehow some evil sex pest...and you wonder why suicide and severe mental health issues are so much more prevelent than in the rest of society.
These are people who have grown up not understanding who they are, often hating themselves and fear that if they come out they will be rejected by friends, family and wider society.
Transitioning takes years and is not easy very few are able to go through with it due to the cost and multiple operations involved.
Do you really think that someone would go through that because it might be slightly easier to win a shiny medal!
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tvor
Frequenter
Posts: 185
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Post by tvor on Jul 25, 2024 12:03:03 GMT
Psychologists would disagree, but you’re right: it’s not my place to dictate how you see yourself. Apologies.
to be more precise.
I would agree I conform with many of the gender stereotypes associated with my biological sex (I'm (male coded) arguing on a (male coded) forum dedicated to (male coded) football for (male coded swearing) f*cks sake!). I do not agree those constitute a 'gender identity'
When I was a teenage goth with long hair, and occasional eye liner and nail varnish, I was still male, even if I was not 'performing masculinity' or however you want to phrase it in gender identity terms.
I am happy to confirm that I am male. I still dress sometimes to the right, sometimes to the left. I have no desire to try and beat women at any sport. Married to a woman who has no desire to try and beat men at any sport, she is however very competitive during games of mixed sex dominoes (fives and threes)
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Post by Count de Stockport on Jul 25, 2024 12:13:08 GMT
A hugely marginalised part of society who are frequently told they're wrong or they don't exist or they're somehow some evil sex pest...and you wonder why suicide and severe mental health issues are so much more prevelent than in the rest of society. These are people who have grown up not understanding who they are, often hating themselves and fear that if they come out they will be rejected by friends, family and wider society. So many parallels with how gay people were treated in the past [edit] and continue to be treated even today
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 12:27:39 GMT
A hugely marginalised part of society who are frequently told they're wrong or they don't exist or they're somehow some evil sex pest...and you wonder why suicide and severe mental health issues are so much more prevelent than in the rest of society. These are people who have grown up not understanding who they are, often hating themselves and fear that if they come out they will be rejected by friends, family and wider society. So many parallels with how gay people were treated in the past [edit] and continue to be treated even today Key difference is that the demands of gay people didn’t affect anyone else. Quite different from the 51% of people affected by the demands of the trans lobby. It’s not for no reason that many of the most persuasive arguments come from lesbians.
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Mozzer
Contributor
Posts: 1,298
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Post by Mozzer on Jul 25, 2024 13:01:50 GMT
This is an extremely difficult topic, but I wouldn't hold much store by who is arguing against it. Look who else is arguing against it - lots of them have a poor record on equality matters, many of which you'd go nowhere near on matters of social liberalism. Also look at who is on the trans side of the debate - lots of feminists and lots of people who have been on the wrong end of homophobia. I say that not to argue that this means they must be right, merely to highlight that saying some lesbians oppose (some) trans rights is not a strong argument in support of that position.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 13:05:00 GMT
So many parallels with how gay people were treated in the past [edit] and continue to be treated even today Key difference is that the demands of gay people didn’t affect anyone else. Quite different from the 51% of people affected by the demands of the trans lobby. It’s not for no reason that many of the most persuasive arguments come from lesbians. Similar to what I’ve said before though, those concerns relate to matters of openness and consent rather than cis/trans issues specifically. Be under no illusion, I think Lexi-Rose Crawford (to give one example) is a despicable individual, and I think the Isla Bryson case (to give another example) shines a light on certain, very particular issues. The defining feature of both of them as individuals is -for me - their criminality, though, so to suggest that a trans person who is prepared to fully and respectfully abide by the laws/rules/norms applicable to any given situation should nevertheless be prevented from doing so is not a position I can agree with.
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