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Post by muddywaters on Mar 31, 2023 9:23:48 GMT
What he doesn't say is that the £7M+ loans that have been converted into equity will be irrecoverable inter company loans and that the company that owns the club still owes somebody (presumably Mr Stott) a shedload of money. We can't keep racking up operating losses of that magnitude or this could all end in tears. well with stadium renovations over the coming years, we're gonna be seeing losses for a few more years because presumably mark stott is paying for the upgrades. Stadium developments will be capitalised so don't form part of the operating loss. Yes they need financing which isn't a problem and no doubt he will fund them using third party capital as he does with his Vita business. I don't have a problem borrowing money to improve the infrastructure of the club, it is borrowing money to fund massive losses that winds me up
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Post by hedleyverity on Mar 31, 2023 9:31:39 GMT
Worth remembering these figures are for up to June 21, income will be much higher for the following year, how much extra costs have risen remains to be seen This is for the 12 mths to June 22, i.e. last year in non league, so yes the income will be higher for this season but from the outside looking in it seems to me that their overhead costs must be horrendous, even the office nobody's now have an assistant. The link I clicked on earlier talked about the West Ham game and finishing in the play off, but with these figures, has now been corrected. Staff numbers do seem huge for a small business
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Post by BWScarf on Mar 31, 2023 9:32:27 GMT
What he doesn't say is that the £7M+ loans that have been converted into equity will be irrecoverable inter company loans and that the company that owns the club still owes somebody (presumably Mr Stott) a shedload of money. We can't keep racking up operating losses of that magnitude or this could all end in tears. Literally every single football club ownership that involves wealth ends that way.
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Post by muddywaters on Mar 31, 2023 9:42:16 GMT
What he doesn't say is that the £7M+ loans that have been converted into equity will be irrecoverable inter company loans and that the company that owns the club still owes somebody (presumably Mr Stott) a shedload of money. We can't keep racking up operating losses of that magnitude or this could all end in tears. Literally every single football club ownership that involves wealth ends that way. Yes I suppose, although it was quite refreshing to look at the Leyton Orient set up after Pugwash posted a note that they had converted a couple of million of debt to equity. Expecting to find the usual smoke and mirrors they actually did convert debt in topco and the company that owns them have £17M share capital and no debt. The Nottm Forest one amazes me, the owner gets plaudits for converting £25M into equity when again it is converting inter company loans which the club will never be able to pay back and the company that owns Forest owes £135M
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Post by 57hattersyears on Mar 31, 2023 10:08:16 GMT
Just waiting for the accounts to be lodged at Companies House to see the full picture. Should be on in the next day or so I would think.
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Post by suedehead on Mar 31, 2023 10:12:42 GMT
Has anyone got an answer to the question, that has been asked several times before, what happens if Stott is hit by a bus?
I'm assuming he's the one sanctioning/signing off all this money, which is great, but what if he's suddenly taken out?
Is there likely to be something in the myriad of the businesses/structure that says the money keeps coming? How long does that last for? Is it just a complete unknown?
In really basic terms, what happens?
And, another basic question for the benefit of everyone, is the club debt free? Can somebody call in any debts that could plunge into trouble very quickly, even if the only person who can do that is Stott?
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Post by muddywaters on Mar 31, 2023 10:45:04 GMT
Has anyone got an answer to the question, that has been asked several times before, what happens if Stott is hit by a bus? I'm assuming he's the one sanctioning/signing off all this money, which is great, but what if he's suddenly taken out? Is there likely to be something in the myriad of the businesses/structure that says the money keeps coming? How long does that last for? Is it just a complete unknown? In really basic terms, what happens? And, another basic question for the benefit of everyone, is the club debt free? Can somebody call in any debts that could plunge into trouble very quickly, even if the only person who can do that is Stott? Technically the club is debt free, evidenced by it's balance sheet. Unfortunately the club is part of a wider group and the Company at the top of the tree owes somebody £12M in the last published accounts (next set to be filed by 30th Sept 2023). All the Companies House filings relating to the debt conversion involve Companies further down, so as it stands at the moment the debt in topco has not been converted. It is likely that the £12M is owed to Mr Stott (or one of his companies) and as he is also 100% shareholder he effectively manages the debt and is unlikely to provoke a situation that devalues his equity. However sometimes situations arise where an individual loses control of the debt. i.e. where it is owed to a company and that company goes into administration and the administrators want the money back (e.g. Notts County) or the individual dies and the debt and shareholding pass to his/her beneficiaries who may/may not like football that much. The problem we have, is that the club is the only asset within the group (apart from what looks like an iffy debtor that has been around a few years) so the only way to satisfy the debt is to either start selling some of the assets of the club (usually players) or try to sell the club in it's entirety. To slightly complicate things the Company that owns the club has 2 outstanding charges to HSBC Bank and Bridging Finance. I reckon that these have been satisfied and need clearing off the record but if they are valid charges the charge holders are a potential risk to the club if topco is indebted to them. When the Directors were questioned about the other companies in the group via the Co-op Q & A forum, it was informed that the particular companies had nothing to do with the club ................. a quick search on Companies House will tell you that those Companies are part of the ownership structure.
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Post by timberwolf on Mar 31, 2023 10:46:32 GMT
Has anyone got an answer to the question, that has been asked several times before, what happens if Stott is hit by a bus? I'm assuming he's the one sanctioning/signing off all this money, which is great, but what if he's suddenly taken out? Is there likely to be something in the myriad of the businesses/structure that says the money keeps coming? How long does that last for? Is it just a complete unknown? In really basic terms, what happens? And, another basic question for the benefit of everyone, is the club debt free? Can somebody call in any debts that could plunge into trouble very quickly, even if the only person who can do that is Stott? Can just say the same for every club from the championship downward. Worse would be for him to lose all interest in the club and sell out to the highest bidder no matter who. Something i,ll never forgive elwood for as it was the start of our decline. So many clubs like us have gone from rags to riches and back to rags again over a short period of the clubs life.
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Post by muddywaters on Mar 31, 2023 10:52:15 GMT
Has anyone got an answer to the question, that has been asked several times before, what happens if Stott is hit by a bus? I'm assuming he's the one sanctioning/signing off all this money, which is great, but what if he's suddenly taken out? Is there likely to be something in the myriad of the businesses/structure that says the money keeps coming? How long does that last for? Is it just a complete unknown? In really basic terms, what happens? And, another basic question for the benefit of everyone, is the club debt free? Can somebody call in any debts that could plunge into trouble very quickly, even if the only person who can do that is Stott? Can just say the same for every club from the championship downward. Worse would be for him to lose all interest in the club and sell out to the highest bidder no matter who. Something i,ll never forgive elwood for as it was the start of our decline. So many clubs like us have gone from rags to riches and back to rags again over a short period of the clubs life. Whilst I have a 'bee in my bonnet' about the way the club is financed I don't believe that Mr Stott is disingenuous in his intentions for the club. However sometimes situations can get away from people, even apparently rich people, Mel Morris at Derby County springs to mind.............so the sooner we get to a sustainable position the better because we have now totally upped the ante and they'll be no coming back from this one if it goes Pete Tong.
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Post by suedehead on Mar 31, 2023 10:56:42 GMT
Can just say the same for every club from the championship downward. Worse would be for him to lose all interest in the club and sell out to the highest bidder no matter who. Something i,ll never forgive elwood for as it was the start of our decline. So many clubs like us have gone from rags to riches and back to rags again over a short period of the clubs life. Whilst I have a 'bee in my bonnet' about the way the club is financed I don't believe that Mr Stott is disingenuous in his intentions for the club. However sometimes situations can get away from people, even apparently rich people, Mel Morris at Derby County springs to mind.............so the sooner we get to a sustainable position the better because we have now totally upped the ante and they'll be no coming back from this one if it goes Pete Tong. Yeah, exactly. I'm the same. I'm not overly concerned about Stott pulling the plug or having bad intentions or anything like that, he's done absolutely nothing for us to be suspicious of. We couldn't really have asked for more from him. But we'd be stupid not to discuss it. Things happen, as you say. Thanks for your answers.
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Post by hedleyverity on Mar 31, 2023 11:11:03 GMT
All ‘sustainable’ means with football clubs is losses at a level the owner is prepared to stomach though, which we’re at at the minute, even in part time football with crowds miles bigger than most in our league we were losing money. I can’t see losses reducing as we go up the leagues. The biggest danger has to be problems in Stotts main business, such as has been seen over and over again at numerous clubs
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Post by timberwolf on Mar 31, 2023 11:12:26 GMT
Whilst I have a 'bee in my bonnet' about the way the club is financed I don't believe that Mr Stott is disingenuous in his intentions for the club. However sometimes situations can get away from people, even apparently rich people, Mel Morris at Derby County springs to mind.............so the sooner we get to a sustainable position the better because we have now totally upped the ante and they'll be no coming back from this one if it goes Pete Tong. Yeah, exactly. I'm the same. I'm not overly concerned about Stott pulling the plug or having bad intentions or anything like that, he's done absolutely nothing for us to be suspicious of. We couldn't really have asked for more from him. But we'd be stupid not to discuss it. Things happen, as you say. Thanks for your answers. As we are being run in the same way as the vast majority of clubs are being run it seems pointless at the moment discussing anything that might or might not happen in the future. If we were really unique then there might be a point but we are not and just a bit richer now than some others who are also in debt without the income we are getting.
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Post by girojim on Mar 31, 2023 11:23:55 GMT
Has anyone got an answer to the question, that has been asked several times before, what happens if Stott is hit by a bus? I'm assuming he's the one sanctioning/signing off all this money, which is great, but what if he's suddenly taken out? Is there likely to be something in the myriad of the businesses/structure that says the money keeps coming? How long does that last for? Is it just a complete unknown? In really basic terms, what happens? And, another basic question for the benefit of everyone, is the club debt free? Can somebody call in any debts that could plunge into trouble very quickly, even if the only person who can do that is Stott? Can just say the same for every club from the championship downward. Worse would be for him to lose all interest in the club and sell out to the highest bidder no matter who. Something i,ll never forgive elwood for as it was the start of our decline. So many clubs like us have gone from rags to riches and back to rags again over a short period of the clubs life. Yes Elwood sold to the highest bidder but. 1. The club was in a much better place when sold than when he took over, had he not taken over who's to say we'd still be in business never mind having that wonderful period. 2. He has gone on public record about how he was lied to by Kennedy about his future plans for the club. When Swanton accused Elwood of slander/libel Elwood's response was "see you in court"
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Post by Nik on Mar 31, 2023 11:33:45 GMT
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Post by timberwolf on Mar 31, 2023 11:36:47 GMT
Can just say the same for every club from the championship downward. Worse would be for him to lose all interest in the club and sell out to the highest bidder no matter who. Something i,ll never forgive elwood for as it was the start of our decline. So many clubs like us have gone from rags to riches and back to rags again over a short period of the clubs life. Yes Elwood sold to the highest bidder but. 1. The club was in a much better place when sold than when he took over, had he not taken over who's to say we'd still be in business never mind having that wonderful period. 2. He has gone on public record about how he was lied to by Kennedy about his future plans for the club. When Swanton accused Elwood of slander/libel Elwood's response was "see you in court" So it does beg the question of why we have had only 3 periods in the last 60 years where we have had any success on the pitch. The present era, the elwood years and vic bernards go go go era. So why cannot we do anything without money being thrown at it. How many other clubs have only had 3 successful periods in these years and have not just thrown cash at it.
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