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Post by gibbo on May 19, 2022 12:39:33 GMT
I agree with the sentiment but we're now limited to wage bill of 55% our turnover in L2, I understand. I'm not sure of the ins and outs of it but halving our ST price would certainly impact our turnover. Even if we could manage it this season, at some point in the future (whether that's League 1 / Championship), the ST Prices are presumably going to have to fall in line with the market rate? Making them too cheap is possibly only delaying an inevitable major hike in prices down the road.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on May 19, 2022 12:41:06 GMT
Yup that was the flat cap of £2.5m/£1.5m. From this article, I can't find anything more recent and clear, the financial fair play rules are still in place that limits the wagebill by turnover. Probably should have described as FFP rules rather than a salary cap but it works in the similar way but is flexible. www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/news/efl-salary-caps-withdrawn/qxQEhmCdZGAo/%3famp=1Edit. This looks definitive and is where I got the 55% figure from. It also links to the EFL rules for the 21/22 season (which are very long, even appendix 5 on FFP, so I've not bothered reading) so presumably is up to date. www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.phpEdit 2! Worth a read as it explains it all quite clearly, presuming it's accurate. Significantly, owner cash and equity injections count as turnover for the purposes of the FFP rules, but not loans. So maybe my point re STs doesn't stand. Moneybags Stott can spend all that he likes!
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Post by suedehead on May 19, 2022 13:05:28 GMT
Reduce the prices to, say £150-200 for our first season back in the FL. He can afford it. Reward the fans for their 11 years of loyalty, watch the sale of them fly through the roof, and begin/continue the process of making people 'County for life not just for the good times'. You lot deserve it. He deserves the adulation and heightened fan base. He'll not think twice about throwing similar levels of cash at one top quality player. Give it to the '12th man' Naive, probably. If I was affluent and had a pile of football league money coming into the club...no brainer to me. Just been looking at Bradford City's website and they only charge £198 for a season ticket and looks like you can pay by direct debit over 12 months, their match tickets last season was £20 in advance going up to £25 on the day, so that is a huge saving for their season ticket holders. I think they have being doing cheap season tickets for quite a few seasons now. The monthly/quarterly payments can be done. Of course it can. It's just a matter of whether the club think it's a big enough deal to sort out.
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Post by gibbo on May 19, 2022 13:20:37 GMT
The monthly/quarterly payments can be done. Of course it can. It's just a matter of whether the club think it's a big enough deal to sort out. Weren't the club not keen on that option? Something to do with the debt management aspects? (recall reading in the Co-Op minutes maybe)
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Post by Sina on May 19, 2022 13:33:05 GMT
The monthly/quarterly payments can be done. Of course it can. It's just a matter of whether the club think it's a big enough deal to sort out. Weren't the club not keen on that option? Something to do with the debt management aspects? (recall reading in the Co-Op minutes maybe) For me they've got two choices really. Freeze prices and don't introduce a pay monthly option or they put them up and bring in that option because if they don't, I can understand why people may not be happy. I don't see them reducing them. However, shoe on the other foot - I can see why they might be mulling over the pay monthly option because as you say, you've got the managing of non payment and therefore no entry to the ground and arguably complaints / kick offs at the turnstiles for that type of thing. More resources and more complications. Balancing act ultimately. IMO, they should bring it in but only if they feel confident they can manage it correctly otherwise it could turn into a shit show. We shall see in due course!
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Post by Ngard on May 19, 2022 13:48:45 GMT
The monthly/quarterly payments can be done. Of course it can. It's just a matter of whether the club think it's a big enough deal to sort out. Weren't the club not keen on that option? Something to do with the debt management aspects? (recall reading in the Co-Op minutes maybe) Yes they did and it's a bit of a cop out answer, in the same way their answer about a loyalty scheme was. Looks like most clubs in league 2 are offering an instalment plan in some form or other. Spreading the cost of something over 12 months doesn't indicate someone who can't afford an item or that they are going to get into debt, it's basically the norm in consumer purchase habits now. We pretty much all have monthly phone contracts, monthly gym memberships, some people will pay their car insurance monthly. Hardly means they're getting into debt for it. Sounds especially tone deaf to dress it up as the caring hand of Stockport County if they then decide to hike season ticket prices up. Bit like when the company I work for tried to sell cost cutting of removing corporate mobiles from us as mental health reasons so you can't be contacted outside of work hours; as if a client or my boss wouldn't just call my own number.
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Post by suedehead on May 19, 2022 13:48:52 GMT
Weren't the club not keen on that option? Something to do with the debt management aspects? (recall reading in the Co-Op minutes maybe) For me they've got two choices really. Freeze prices and don't introduce a pay monthly option or they put them up and bring in that option because if they don't, I can understand why people may not be happy. I don't see them reducing them. However, shoe on the other foot - I can see why they might be mulling over the pay monthly option because as you say, you've got the managing of non payment and therefore no entry to the ground and arguably complaints / kick offs at the turnstiles for that type of thing. More resources and more complications. Balancing act ultimately. IMO, they should bring it in but only if they feel confident they can manage it correctly otherwise it could turn into a shit show. We shall see in due course! It's quite a simple counter to anyone kicking off though isn't it? You haven't paid for a ticket/bought your balance up to date as required, therefore you're not coming in. So either pay what's owed or go and buy another ticket from the ticket office? I'd imagine the number of people kicking off because they can't gain entry with a ticket they haven't paid for would be very low, although nothing with our fans surprises me any more. Tbh, I'd expect it all to be outsourced anyway. Getting a team of contractors in to design and build a bespoke loyalty programme, in time for the new season, would cost hundreds of thousands. You'd need a good team of engineers, designers, product, project managers, possibly scrum masters, delivery leads etc. Plus the time and head room to actually go and research what the system needs to do, understand the different paths/journeys/scenarios. It's a piece of piss to say 'award x points every time suedehead buys a ticket' but it's all the different paths that need considering that make such a piece of work so complex. What happens if I buy a ticket but don't attend? Or if I pass my ticket to a mate? Or want a refund? Or forget to assign my loyalty card number to a purchase and want to do it retrospectively to accrue the points? Or I've been using a stolen card to pay for my ticket purchases? Or I get banned but still have a season ticket? There's a million scenarios. Some of them would need factoring in for an MVP, some would come with later releases, some would be such edge cases they'd just park them and deal with the manually as and when they came up. Also each contractor would be on a signifcant day rate of several hundred pounds, and then we'd still need the maintenance of the system after launch. And, probably the biggest task would be getting the existing data into such a condition that it could be migrated over to any new system so it serves a purpose. So I suspect we'd go for some white label third party system we can configure and tinker with and stick our branding on. That won't be perfect, because none of them are, but it'd save an awful lot of time and money in the long run.
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Post by Ngard on May 19, 2022 13:55:35 GMT
Speaking of ticketing systems though, I noticed when I bought my ticket for the champions presentation they had introduced a queue/traffic system like you see on gig ticket websites so looks like they've learnt from the Wrexham fiasco.
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Post by Duncan McOchin on May 19, 2022 14:08:45 GMT
Yup that was the flat cap of £2.5m/£1.5m. From this article, I can't find anything more recent and clear, the financial fair play rules are still in place that limits the wagebill by turnover. Probably should have described as FFP rules rather than a wage cap but it works in the similar way but is flexible. www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/news/efl-wage-caps-withdrawn/qxQEhmCdZGAo/%3famp=1Edit. This looks definitive and is where I got the 55% figure from. It also links to the EFL rules for the 21/22 season (which are very long, even appendix 5 on FFP, so I've not bothered reading) so presumably is up to date. www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.phpEdit 2! Worth a read as it explains it all quite clearly, presuming it's accurate. Significantly, owner cash and equity injections count as turnover for the purposes of the FFP rules, but not loans. So maybe my point re STs doesn't stand. Moneybags Stott can spend all that he likes! There's also the question of non-financial inducements offered to players, and why the wage figures that often get bandied around are over the top/too simplistic. It's something I know is fairly common in things such as ice hockey - British teams will link up with local universities to offer North American players free places on courses, so whilst their take-home pay might be rather meagre, the overall value of the deal makes it worth a lot more. Mr Stott is in charge of a lot of property - not just student flats, but things like City Suites in Manchester, which is where many of City's players live. I'm not sure whether County will be offering players the same level of luxury as Guardiola's place, but I am sure that some good standard apartments/suits will be part of the deal we offer recent & future signings.
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Post by suedehead on May 19, 2022 14:15:17 GMT
Yup that was the flat cap of £2.5m/£1.5m. From this article, I can't find anything more recent and clear, the financial fair play rules are still in place that limits the wagebill by turnover. Probably should have described as FFP rules rather than a wage cap but it works in the similar way but is flexible. www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/news/efl-wage-caps-withdrawn/qxQEhmCdZGAo/%3famp=1Edit. This looks definitive and is where I got the 55% figure from. It also links to the EFL rules for the 21/22 season (which are very long, even appendix 5 on FFP, so I've not bothered reading) so presumably is up to date. www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.phpEdit 2! Worth a read as it explains it all quite clearly, presuming it's accurate. Significantly, owner cash and equity injections count as turnover for the purposes of the FFP rules, but not loans. So maybe my point re STs doesn't stand. Moneybags Stott can spend all that he likes! There's also the question of non-financial inducements offered to players, and why the wage figures that often get bandied around are over the top/too simplistic. It's something I know is fairly common in things such as ice hockey - British teams will link up with local universities to offer North American players free places on courses, so whilst their take-home pay might be rather meagre, the overall value of the deal makes it worth a lot more. Mr Stott is in charge of a lot of property - not just student flats, but things like City Suites in Manchester, which is where many of City's players live. I'm not sure whether County will be offering players the same level of luxury as Guardiola's place, but I am sure that some good standard apartments/suits will be part of the deal we offer recent & future signings. Yeah, defo. There's a few of them in there already. Sure that's a pretty sweet perk as rent in one of those places, or a compparable spot, must be a good few grand a month.
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Post by DaveLong79 on May 19, 2022 14:23:16 GMT
Yup that was the flat cap of £2.5m/£1.5m. From this article, I can't find anything more recent and clear, the financial fair play rules are still in place that limits the wagebill by turnover. Probably should have described as FFP rules rather than a salary cap but it works in the similar way but is flexible. www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/news/efl-salary-caps-withdrawn/qxQEhmCdZGAo/%3famp=1Edit. This looks definitive and is where I got the 55% figure from. It also links to the EFL rules for the 21/22 season (which are very long, even appendix 5 on FFP, so I've not bothered reading) so presumably is up to date. www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.phpEdit 2! Worth a read as it explains it all quite clearly, presuming it's accurate. Significantly, owner cash and equity injections count as turnover for the purposes of the FFP rules, but not loans. So maybe my point re STs doesn't stand. Moneybags Stott can spend all that he likes! Cheers. I'm definitely no expert in these kind of things, mainly because I haven't had to bother with them before, but this helps a lot.
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Post by DaveLong79 on May 19, 2022 14:30:30 GMT
For me they've got two choices really. Freeze prices and don't introduce a pay monthly option or they put them up and bring in that option because if they don't, I can understand why people may not be happy. I don't see them reducing them. However, shoe on the other foot - I can see why they might be mulling over the pay monthly option because as you say, you've got the managing of non payment and therefore no entry to the ground and arguably complaints / kick offs at the turnstiles for that type of thing. More resources and more complications. Balancing act ultimately. IMO, they should bring it in but only if they feel confident they can manage it correctly otherwise it could turn into a shit show. We shall see in due course! It's quite a simple counter to anyone kicking off though isn't it? You haven't paid for a ticket/bought your balance up to date as required, therefore you're not coming in. So either pay what's owed or go and buy another ticket from the ticket office? I'd imagine the number of people kicking off because they can't gain entry with a ticket they haven't paid for would be very low, although nothing with our fans surprises me any more. Tbh, I'd expect it all to be outsourced anyway. Getting a team of contractors in to design and build a bespoke loyalty programme, in time for the new season, would cost hundreds of thousands. You'd need a good team of engineers, designers, product, project managers, possibly scrum masters, delivery leads etc. Plus the time and head room to actually go and research what the system needs to do, understand the different paths/journeys/scenarios. It's a piece of piss to say 'award x points every time suedehead buys a ticket' but it's all the different paths that need considering that make such a piece of work so complex. What happens if I buy a ticket but don't attend? Or if I pass my ticket to a mate? Or want a refund? Or forget to assign my loyalty card number to a purchase and want to do it retrospectively to accrue the points? Or I've been using a stolen card to pay for my ticket purchases? Or I get banned but still have a season ticket? There's a million scenarios. Some of them would need factoring in for an MVP, some would come with later releases, some would be such edge cases they'd just park them and deal with the manually as and when they came up. Also each contractor would be on a signifcant day rate of several hundred pounds, and then we'd still need the maintenance of the system after launch. And, probably the biggest task would be getting the existing data into such a condition that it could be migrated over to any new system so it serves a purpose. So I suspect we'd go for some white label third party system we can configure and tinker with and stick our branding on. That won't be perfect, because none of them are, but it'd save an awful lot of time and money in the long run. Great post. Like my previous post, I'm no expert in what a scheme should include, and definitely not one in regards to how it can be built, implemented and maintained, so again, thanks for posting this. I've always been of the opinion that there should be one, but understand it's a balancing act between pleasing the fans and being beneficial, cost-effective and easy to run for the club. Rather them than me on this one!
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Post by stockytwo on May 19, 2022 15:09:26 GMT
Not sure how much the buying at ST over time would have to be policed by the club to be honest.
Would have thought the club would just outsource the financing to a financing company. The club then gets the cash up front when the person signs the deal and it's up to the financing company to get the money over the course of the contract. If the person defaults on the payment then it's them that's getting into bad debt, bayliffs round, no chance of getting another ST on credit etc.
Don't think Mark Stott will be going round peoples houses when they miss a payment
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Post by Sina on May 19, 2022 15:16:30 GMT
For me they've got two choices really. Freeze prices and don't introduce a pay monthly option or they put them up and bring in that option because if they don't, I can understand why people may not be happy. I don't see them reducing them. However, shoe on the other foot - I can see why they might be mulling over the pay monthly option because as you say, you've got the managing of non payment and therefore no entry to the ground and arguably complaints / kick offs at the turnstiles for that type of thing. More resources and more complications. Balancing act ultimately. IMO, they should bring it in but only if they feel confident they can manage it correctly otherwise it could turn into a shit show. We shall see in due course! It's quite a simple counter to anyone kicking off though isn't it? You haven't paid for a ticket/bought your balance up to date as required, therefore you're not coming in. So either pay what's owed or go and buy another ticket from the ticket office? I'd imagine the number of people kicking off because they can't gain entry with a ticket they haven't paid for would be very low, although nothing with our fans surprises me any more. Tbh, I'd expect it all to be outsourced anyway. Getting a team of contractors in to design and build a bespoke loyalty programme, in time for the new season, would cost hundreds of thousands. You'd need a good team of engineers, designers, product, project managers, possibly scrum masters, delivery leads etc. Plus the time and head room to actually go and research what the system needs to do, understand the different paths/journeys/scenarios. It's a piece of piss to say 'award x points every time suedehead buys a ticket' but it's all the different paths that need considering that make such a piece of work so complex. What happens if I buy a ticket but don't attend? Or if I pass my ticket to a mate? Or want a refund? Or forget to assign my loyalty card number to a purchase and want to do it retrospectively to accrue the points? Or I've been using a stolen card to pay for my ticket purchases? Or I get banned but still have a season ticket? There's a million scenarios. Some of them would need factoring in for an MVP, some would come with later releases, some would be such edge cases they'd just park them and deal with the manually as and when they came up. Also each contractor would be on a signifcant day rate of several hundred pounds, and then we'd still need the maintenance of the system after launch. And, probably the biggest task would be getting the existing data into such a condition that it could be migrated over to any new system so it serves a purpose. So I suspect we'd go for some white label third party system we can configure and tinker with and stick our branding on. That won't be perfect, because none of them are, but it'd save an awful lot of time and money in the long run. It would absolutely be outsourced - hence I imagine the reluctance perhaps to do it unless someone presents them with figures that doesn't concern them. I work in an industry where I see this type of finance offered to a lot of people, including other clubs who use certain firms and other industries as well. The default on those agreements is circa 9%. If you've got possibly 4,500 season ticket sales, that would concern me personally if I was involved, particularly with the increase in the price of everything and anything in every day life. Season tickets are probably up there with one of the first things you cancel if you're struggling with priority bills. You've then got the issue of defaulting that agreement, credit files, vulnerability, complaints, people moaning if a payment is taken when it shouldn't have been and even though you'd argue that's the third party's issue and not the club, it's still the club doing these things in the consumers eye. I get the point about the easy solutions to stop people however no one reads T&C's at the best of times. Your answers are obviously the right ones but the reality is as you say, nothing would surprise you. I am of the opinion as I said they should look at it and probably implement it but not if they freeze ticket prices, IMO.
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Post by desmond on May 19, 2022 15:31:14 GMT
Reduce the prices to, say £150-200 for our first season back in the FL. He can afford it. Reward the fans for their 11 years of loyalty, watch the sale of them fly through the roof, and begin/continue the process of making people 'County for life not just for the good times'. You lot deserve it. He deserves the adulation and heightened fan base. He'll not think twice about throwing similar levels of cash at one top quality player. Give it to the '12th man' Naive, probably. If I was affluent and had a pile of football league money coming into the club...no brainer to me. Just been looking at Bradford City's website and they only charge £198 for a season ticket and looks like you can pay by direct debit over 12 months, their match tickets last season was £20 in advance going up to £25 on the day, so that is a huge saving for their season ticket holders. I think they have being doing cheap season tickets for quite a few seasons now. Bradford fleece the away fans paying on the day to part fund that.
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