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Post by HTC on Jul 15, 2024 9:37:50 GMT
I wonder how Gareth Southgate will be remembered in years to come. The man who turned around a massively underperforming team reaching 2 Euro finals, a World Cup semi final and a World Cup quarter final during his 8 years in charge or the man who failed to utilise the strengths of his better players playing them more often than not in an alien system in positions that do not get the best out of them.
all depends what happens next.
If we end up changing manager, and continuing to reach finals / actually win a major tournament in the next few years, he'll be the nearly man who gets a lot of praise for laying the groundwork for the later success.
If we change manager, and revert to the traditional English approach of star players not gelling / intra-club politics causing a fractured side / defeat in R2 / QF with the biased ref/tough crowd/penalties/evil opposition superstar taking the blame, Southgate becomes Bobby Robson, only with 2 finals and one SF, rather than one SF.
Know which one I'm betting on...
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Post by mat1scfc on Jul 15, 2024 9:47:36 GMT
I wonder how Gareth Southgate will be remembered in years to come. The man who turned around a massively underperforming team reaching 2 Euro finals, a World Cup semi final and a World Cup quarter final during his 8 years in charge or the man who failed to utilise the strengths of his better players playing them more often than not in an alien system in positions that do not get the best out of them. "The man who turned around a massively underperforming team" Seen this type of comment alot and it got me thinking. Has he actually turned anything around this underperforming team, how many of the players that he used yesterday in the final have played under a different manager for England. I can only think of kane and walker who may fall into that category. Hes the only manager to have had this group of players of which weve been favourites for the last two euros. In the last Decade (i know southgate only been here 8 years) us and Netherlands the only big football nation with lots of talent that hasn't won anything but our talent is alot higher than theres
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Post by HTC on Jul 15, 2024 9:54:10 GMT
I wonder how Gareth Southgate will be remembered in years to come. The man who turned around a massively underperforming team reaching 2 Euro finals, a World Cup semi final and a World Cup quarter final during his 8 years in charge or the man who failed to utilise the strengths of his better players playing them more often than not in an alien system in positions that do not get the best out of them. "The man who turned around a massively underperforming team" Seen this type of comment alot and it got me thinking. Has he actually turned anything around this underperforming team, how many of the players that he used yesterday in the final have played under a different manager for England. I can only think of kane and walker who may fall into that category. Hes the only manager to have had this group of players of which weve been favourites for the last two euros. In the last Decade (i know southgate only been here 8 years) us and Netherlands the only big football nation with lots of talent that hasn't won anything but our talent is alot higher than theres
Think the main thing that says is that you're a lot younger than most of us posting here.
We're talking more in terms of underperformance over the last 40 - 50 years, even the few half decent years in the 90s had the Taylor & Keegan interludes.
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Post by 1994hatter on Jul 15, 2024 10:02:19 GMT
I wonder how Gareth Southgate will be remembered in years to come. The man who turned around a massively underperforming team reaching 2 Euro finals, a World Cup semi final and a World Cup quarter final during his 8 years in charge or the man who failed to utilise the strengths of his better players playing them more often than not in an alien system in positions that do not get the best out of them. "The man who turned around a massively underperforming team" Seen this type of comment alot and it got me thinking. Has he actually turned anything around this underperforming team, how many of the players that he used yesterday in the final have played under a different manager for England. I can only think of kane and walker who may fall into that category. Hes the only manager to have had this group of players of which weve been favourites for the last two euros. In the last Decade (i know southgate only been here 8 years) us and Netherlands the only big football nation with lots of talent that hasn't won anything but our talent is alot higher than theres Belgium have had their golden era come and go over the same period. Not quite as ‘big’ a football nation but they had an incredible squad at one stage.
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Post by Ngard on Jul 15, 2024 10:29:43 GMT
I wonder how Gareth Southgate will be remembered in years to come. The man who turned around a massively underperforming team reaching 2 Euro finals, a World Cup semi final and a World Cup quarter final during his 8 years in charge or the man who failed to utilise the strengths of his better players playing them more often than not in an alien system in positions that do not get the best out of them.
all depends what happens next.
If we end up changing manager, and continuing to reach finals / actually win a major tournament in the next few years, he'll be the nearly man who gets a lot of praise for laying the groundwork for the later success.
If we change manager, and revert to the traditional English approach of star players not gelling / intra-club politics causing a fractured side / defeat in R2 / QF with the biased ref/tough crowd/penalties/evil opposition superstar taking the blame, Southgate becomes Bobby Robson, only with 2 finals and one SF, rather than one SF.
Know which one I'm betting on...
I'm optimistic that it will be the former not the latter. I think the culture of football/young footballers has changed that we won't go back to the old days where you had bitter Ferguson telling the united lads not to speak to anyone and big club cliques. The way Southgate has treated the players and the culture change he has done is effectively the same approach taken at football academies now. So long as they appoint a modern manager and not a dinosaur that shouldn't change.
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Post by Ngard on Jul 15, 2024 10:31:26 GMT
Not too fussed about whether the next manager isn't English or not. I think our failings with past foreign managers has been appointing ones with no experience managing in the premier league. Someone like a Klopp or Tuchel wouldn't have that issue.
It will be Potter though, believe he's been deliberately holding out/waiting for the opportunity.
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Post by Count de Stockport on Jul 15, 2024 11:11:06 GMT
all depends what happens next.
If we end up changing manager, and continuing to reach finals / actually win a major tournament in the next few years, he'll be the nearly man who gets a lot of praise for laying the groundwork for the later success.
If we change manager, and revert to the traditional English approach of star players not gelling / intra-club politics causing a fractured side / defeat in R2 / QF with the biased ref/tough crowd/penalties/evil opposition superstar taking the blame, Southgate becomes Bobby Robson, only with 2 finals and one SF, rather than one SF.
Know which one I'm betting on...
I'm optimistic that it will be the former not the latter. I think the culture of football/young footballers has changed that we won't go back to the old days where you had bitter Ferguson telling the united lads not to speak to anyone and big club cliques. The way Southgate has treated the players and the culture change he has done is effectively the same approach taken at football academies now. So long as they appoint a modern manager and not a dinosaur that shouldn't change. That's what really concerns me tbh Please FA learn the right lessons ffs
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Post by BWScarf on Jul 15, 2024 11:22:39 GMT
Our major tournament record since 2018: Wins - Tunisia Panama Sweden Czechia Germany Ukraine Croatia Iran Wales Senegal Serbia Netherlands Draws - Colombia (win on pens) Scotland Croatia (loss after ET) Denmark (win after ET) Italy (loss after pens) USA Denmark Slovenia Slovakia (win after ET) Switzerland (win after pens) Loses - Belgium (x2) France Spain I think it’s easy enough to draw your own conclusions from that. What’s our record for the 4 tournaments immediately before 2018? I think this might be going over old ground, but I’m not sure our tournament record under GS is much comfort, tbh. It’s more complicated and nuanced than that. GS has done a hell of a lot of good work with the England setup, in recalibrating what the national team should be, who should represent it and how they should present themselves in public and on the pitch. That alone places him at the top end of the charts for England managers past, and I think he deserves our immense gratitude for that, and if he wants it, a role in the England setup somewhere for however long he wants. But here’s the key, IMO: part of Southgate has tried to achieve is turning us from a joke nation of no-hopers into one that says “hang on, we’re a country of nearly 60 million people. We should be able to compete against the best sides in Europe, if not the world”. He’s absolutely succeeded in getting us to that point, but it’s time now to take a step further. Getting to semis and finals is what these players should be doing. So the fact we didn’t do it in the past is like comparing apples with oranges. Capello and Hodgson were abysmal England managers, truly hopelessly bad. Saying Southgate is better than them is really damning him with the faintest praise and setting the very lowest bar for success. He’s much, much better, obviously. He’s achieved what you might call ‘phase one’ of taking England to where he felt we ought to be, at the top table (Nations League omnishambles aside). But here’s the question: is he the right person to take us forward into the next phase? I don’t know. To take a cold, emotionless view, our record against the very best teams is still almost as poor as it was pre-Southgate. There’s only Germany we’ve beaten who were a truly top side. We’ve still won zero trophies for the men’s team since 1966. He’s taught us how to beat teams we should beat, ended with glorious failure, whatever, football history is written by the winners. But we are at least closer than we were. So I guess what he has to decide, and what the FA has to decide, is whether the ‘phase 2’ part - actually winning something - is going to be achieved by GS or not. As an aside, one of the best things Southgate achieved was tackling the massive egos of bellend players who thought they were better than they were. It’s good that he has the sort of relationship with Kane to be able to take him off. But at the next tournament, Southgate or sans Southgate, I want us to take players who are honest about their level of fitness. Harry Kane should not have had as many minutes as he did at this tournament.
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Post by mattyovrio on Jul 15, 2024 11:45:20 GMT
I won’t quote BWS’s post above, but I can agree with it all. GS has made us better as an England team, but he has taken us as far as he can. The men’s national team is in a much better place now than it was when he took over. The FA need to appoint a serial winner. That isn’t Potter. That is an Ancelotti type. Bielsa would be an interesting alternative. Maybe I am doing Potter a disservice, but he just feels very Southgate V2.0 to me.
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Post by houldsworthhatter on Jul 15, 2024 11:59:10 GMT
I wonder how Gareth Southgate will be remembered in years to come. The man who turned around a massively underperforming team reaching 2 Euro finals, a World Cup semi final and a World Cup quarter final during his 8 years in charge or the man who failed to utilise the strengths of his better players playing them more often than not in an alien system in positions that do not get the best out of them. "The man who turned around a massively underperforming team" Seen this type of comment alot and it got me thinking. Has he actually turned anything around this underperforming team, how many of the players that he used yesterday in the final have played under a different manager for England. I can only think of kane and walker who may fall into that category. Hes the only manager to have had this group of players of which weve been favourites for the last two euros. In the last Decade (i know southgate only been here 8 years) us and Netherlands the only big football nation with lots of talent that hasn't won anything but our talent is alot higher than theres Have Belgium won anything in that time?
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 15, 2024 12:01:50 GMT
On the positive side, those Spaniards were bloody brilliant weren't they. If that Williams doesn't win player of the tournament, there's no justice. Three cheers for Williams. Rodri won player of the tournament i think I didn’t think Wales qualified?
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Jul 15, 2024 12:05:27 GMT
What’s our record for the 4 tournaments immediately before 2018? I think this might be going over old ground, but I’m not sure our tournament record under GS is much comfort, tbh. It’s more complicated and nuanced than that. GS has done a hell of a lot of good work with the England setup, in recalibrating what the national team should be, who should represent it and how they should present themselves in public and on the pitch. That alone places him at the top end of the charts for England managers past, and I think he deserves our immense gratitude for that, and if he wants it, a role in the England setup somewhere for however long he wants. But here’s the key, IMO: part of Southgate has tried to achieve is turning us from a joke nation of no-hopers into one that says “hang on, we’re a country of nearly 60 million people. We should be able to compete against the best sides in Europe, if not the world”. He’s absolutely succeeded in getting us to that point, but it’s time now to take a step further. Getting to semis and finals is what these players should be doing. So the fact we didn’t do it in the past is like comparing apples with oranges. Capello and Hodgson were abysmal England managers, truly hopelessly bad. Saying Southgate is better than them is really damning him with the faintest praise and setting the very lowest bar for success. He’s much, much better, obviously. He’s achieved what you might call ‘phase one’ of taking England to where he felt we ought to be, at the top table (Nations League omnishambles aside). But here’s the question: is he the right person to take us forward into the next phase? I don’t know. To take a cold, emotionless view, our record against the very best teams is still almost as poor as it was pre-Southgate. There’s only Germany we’ve beaten who were a truly top side. We’ve still won zero trophies for the men’s team since 1966. He’s taught us how to beat teams we should beat, ended with glorious failure, whatever, football history is written by the winners. But we are at least closer than we were. So I guess what he has to decide, and what the FA has to decide, is whether the ‘phase 2’ part - actually winning something - is going to be achieved by GS or not. As an aside, one of the best things Southgate achieved was tackling the massive egos of bellend players who thought they were better than they were. It’s good that he has the sort of relationship with Kane to be able to take him off. But at the next tournament, Southgate or sans Southgate, I want us to take players who are honest about their level of fitness. Harry Kane should not have had as many minutes as he did at this tournament. This is a good take, nuanced and sensible. Acknowledges Southgate’s successes and his weaknesses.
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Post by bigmartin on Jul 15, 2024 12:30:22 GMT
Southgate backers quiet. I want to see them come and defend their man. I want to be convinced. I'd like nothing more than to have my mind altered because Southgate is genuinely a very nice man. But I think the excuses are in short supply now. A little bit upset and feeling slightly down about it. Be grateful that Southgate's so useless though. You sound absolutely f*cking chipper mate. Good for you.
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Post by atmosphere on Jul 15, 2024 12:40:49 GMT
Southgate backers quiet. I want to see them come and defend their man. I want to be convinced. I'd like nothing more than to have my mind altered because Southgate is genuinely a very nice man. But I think the excuses are in short supply now. A little bit upset and feeling slightly down about it. Be grateful that Southgate's so useless though. You sound absolutely f*cking chipper mate. Good on you. I'm not chipper. I'm disappointed. I admit I'm not as emotionally invested in the National Team as I am about County.
I really would like to see the FA give a position to Southgate. Don't know what yet but it'd be a shame if he drifted out of the game or just became a pundit again.
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Post by voodooray on Jul 15, 2024 13:56:41 GMT
I think BWS sums it up really well.
For a nation with such a rich football tradition, and a big population, we really have under-performed over the years. Lots of hype, lots of noise, lots of flags. Always ending in noble failure or sheer embarrassment.
England under Southgate have failed as well. Failed at a higher level. That's not saying much. In fact, it sounds ridiculous, I know. But the point is that we've moved up a notch - we are contenders, now, not dreamers. Or at least we should be. Getting to SFs and Finals must be our benchmark. We need to stay at that level.
Despite his limitations, I like what Southgate has done for England, in so many ways. It goes beyond tactics and formations. It's been a good era for England. Some of the abuse chucked at him was way out of order. But he behaved like a gent and carried himself with dignity.
I suspect it is time for a new manager - I just hope that whoever comes in can build on what Southgate has done, and use it to take us further. That one step further.
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