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Post by timberwolf on Nov 3, 2023 8:35:27 GMT
Possibly being OK and as good as the others should be enough. If you want female and male match officials then they should be seen as the same and not one making the headlines because of their sex. Surely if they are all regarded as being equal then that should include all publicity about them.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Nov 3, 2023 8:43:46 GMT
Possibly being OK and as good as the others should be enough. If you want female and male match officials then they should be seen as the same and not one making the headlines because of their sex. Surely if they are all regarded as being equal then that should include all publicity about them. It makes the headlines as there are so few female officials. There is a disproportionate amount of publicity about male officials (every ref you can name will be a man) because a disproportionate, virtually all, are male. I don't profess to be an expert on the subject but at this point you need to publicise the trailblazers so other young females realise that this career is an option to them and have role models. Once you get to something like proportionate representation (or at least equal opportunity, accepting some careers "suit" certain genders more - though that might be old fashioned thinking) and having a female official isn't a novel thing, then you don't need to publicise it. Then hopefully we'll be gender blind and it's just pure ability. But, as it is now, if you don't take any active steps it won't improve. There's too many hidden barriers there - lack of role models, attitudes to women in football, abuse at lower levels etc. It says a lot that Welch is one of the best refs many of us can remember reffing a County game. It's probably those barriers that meant she's had to be better than the rest to get to this point because of her gender.
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Post by timberwolf on Nov 3, 2023 9:13:59 GMT
Possibly being OK and as good as the others should be enough. If you want female and male match officials then they should be seen as the same and not one making the headlines because of their sex. Surely if they are all regarded as being equal then that should include all publicity about them. It makes the headlines as there are so few female officials. There is a disproportionate amount of publicity about male officials (every ref you can name will be a man) because a disproportionate, virtually all, are male. I don't profess to be an expert on the subject but at this point you need to publicise the trailblazers so other young females realise that this career is an option to them and have role models. Once you get to something like proportionate representation (or at least equal opportunity, accepting some careers "suit" certain genders more - though that might be old fashioned thinking) and having a female official isn't a novel thing, then you don't need to publicise it. Then hopefully we'll be gender blind and it's just pure ability. But, as it is now, if you don't take any active steps it won't improve. There's too many hidden barriers there - lack of role models, attitudes to women in football, abuse at lower levels etc. It says a lot that Welch is one of the best refs many of us can remember reffing a County game. It's probably those barriers that meant she's had to be better than the rest to get to this point because of her gender. Possibly being gender and colour blind i might see things differently than most. However at grass roots level there are numerous female referees. Do think though for the average woman the real lack of facilities especially in winter makes it more difficult for them just to progress. You go to many grounds where you have to change with one of the teams which would be a no go for them. They might if lucky be told beforehand there is no facility for them even if its temporary so they go already changed to then drive home soaked to the skin if they are unlucky. Getting past this stage is possibly there biggest barrier to moving up the leagues as they know even now they,ll need to be better than a male counterpart even though they are being pushed by their county FA.
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Post by orkneyhatter on Nov 3, 2023 10:12:21 GMT
Possibly being OK and as good as the others should be enough. If you want female and male match officials then they should be seen as the same and not one making the headlines because of their sex. Surely if they are all regarded as being equal then that should include all publicity about them. Agree totally. The BBC can be the worst for this type of thing. Don't like this "the first female/gay/south asian/insert other diverse group" stuff. We should celebrate those who excel in whatever field without the labels. Yes I know some people have to contend with difficulties because of their ethnicity, diversity etc but I would like to think that in an ideal equal world these do not have to be highlighted because race, gender. ethnicity shouldn't matter. But in today's society many people seem to have a need to label themselves as part of their identity. Congratulations to Rebecca she certainly performed well when I've seen her ref.
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Mozzer
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Post by Mozzer on Nov 3, 2023 10:17:44 GMT
Possibly being OK and as good as the others should be enough. If you want female and male match officials then they should be seen as the same and not one making the headlines because of their sex. Surely if they are all regarded as being equal then that should include all publicity about them. Agree totally. The BBC can be the worst for this type of thing. Don't like this "the first female/gay/south asian/insert other diverse group" stuff. We should celebrate those who excel in whatever field without the labels. Yes I know some people have to contend with difficulties because of their ethnicity, diversity etc but I would like to think that in an ideal equal world these do not have to be highlighted because race, gender. ethnicity shouldn't matter. But in today's society many people seem to have a need to label themselves as part of their identity. Congratulations to Rebecca she certainly performed well when I've seen her ref. Quick question then: Do you think we live in an ideal, equal world?
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Post by orkneyhatter on Nov 3, 2023 10:52:12 GMT
Agree totally. The BBC can be the worst for this type of thing. Don't like this "the first female/gay/south asian/insert other diverse group" stuff. We should celebrate those who excel in whatever field without the labels. Yes I know some people have to contend with difficulties because of their ethnicity, diversity etc but I would like to think that in an ideal equal world these do not have to be highlighted because race, gender. ethnicity shouldn't matter. But in today's society many people seem to have a need to label themselves as part of their identity. Congratulations to Rebecca she certainly performed well when I've seen her ref. Quick question then: Do you think we live in an ideal, equal world? No I don't but i don't agree with positive discrimination either. If you are good enough and determined enough you should achieve your goal. Someone always has to be first but it's because of their talent and determination not their gender ethnicity etc. That's just reinforcing the "differences"" IMO. We need to accept people for just who they are,a talented member of the human race.
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Post by orkneyhatter on Nov 3, 2023 10:54:54 GMT
Quick question then: Do you think we live in an ideal, equal world? No I don't but i don't agree with positive discrimination either. If you are good enough and determined enough you should achieve your goal. Someone always has to be first but it's because of their talent and determination not their gender ethnicity etc. That's just reinforcing the "differences"" IMO. We need to accept people for just who they are,a talented member of the human race. and in an equal ideal world would yellowboard have a purpose? In an ideal world County would win everything! What would we discuss?
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Post by AllyF on Nov 3, 2023 11:37:26 GMT
I'd say she was one of the best we have had in recent seasons and the powers that be must agree and promoted her to the Championship list for this season. Likewise the male ref we had for the Bolton and Leicester home games also got promoted and has even refereed a few Premier League games recently.
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Post by timberwolf on Nov 3, 2023 11:55:36 GMT
anyone who wishes for an ideal and equal world is going to have a very long and flustrating life seeing its never going to happen. No matter who you are there is always someone in a better and equally a worse place than you are.
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Mozzer
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Post by Mozzer on Nov 3, 2023 11:55:51 GMT
Quick question then: Do you think we live in an ideal, equal world? No I don't but i don't agree with positive discrimination either. If you are good enough and determined enough you should achieve your goal. Someone always has to be first but it's because of their talent and determination not their gender ethnicity etc. That's just reinforcing the "differences"" IMO. We need to accept people for just who they are,a talented member of the human race. Well, we're not really talking about positive discrimination (whatever that might mean), are we? We're talking about highlighting things changing. So whilst people are breaking down barriers and making progress in changing the world for what I think many would agree is the better, making a virtue of that is a de facto good thing. If it annoys people, I'd say that's also good, because we're not in that ideal world and if it pisses people off that such things are highlighted, it might make some of them wonder why that's the case. If they remain pissed off at it being highlighted after they've considered that things still need to change for the better, that's probably because they don't really want things to change. So them being annoyed gives me some pleasure. A bigot having their piss boiled is always a pleasure. I've digressed slightly there, but going back to your comment, Orkney, how do you both highlight where things are improving and not identify that there are differences? Equality of opportunity is not about pretending everyone is the same. In many ways, it is about acknowledging that we are not all the same and that we do not all face the same issues in getting to the same place.
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Post by timberwolf on Nov 3, 2023 12:00:23 GMT
Quick question then: Do you think we live in an ideal, equal world? No I don't but i don't agree with positive discrimination either. If you are good enough and determined enough you should achieve your goal. Someone always has to be first but it's because of their talent and determination not their gender ethnicity etc. That's just reinforcing the "differences"" IMO. We need to accept people for just who they are,a talented member of the human race. Do not agree on anything where others give you an edge on others either by positive discrimination, who your parents were or which school or university you attended. Its hard to image two people being exactly being totally the same before any of these should come into it.
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Post by timberwolf on Nov 3, 2023 12:13:00 GMT
Well, we're not really talking about positive discrimination (whatever that might mean), are we? We're talking about highlighting things changing. So whilst people are breaking down barriers and making progress in changing the world for what I think many would agree is the better, making a virtue of that is a de facto good thing. If it annoys people, I'd say that's also good, because we're not in that ideal world and if it pisses people off that such things are highlighted, it might make some of them wonder why that's the case. If they remain pissed off at it being highlighted after they've considered that things still need to change for the better, that's probably because they don't really want things to change. So them being annoyed gives me some pleasure. A bigot having their piss boiled is always a pleasure. I've digressed slightly there, but going back to your comment, Orkney, how do you both highlight where things are improving and not identify that there are differences? Equality of opportunity is not about pretending everyone is the same. In many ways, it is about acknowledging that we are not all the same and that we do not all face the same issues in getting to the same place. A few points on your first paragraph. Firstly not all change can be viewed as being good. Hope your view of the bigot is not the usual subject who happens to be a middle aged white man with right wing views and womens rights have not been helped by the trans ideology that even kids are being subjected to. Perfection that will vary from each persons own point of view will never work if the majority are being road roughshod over for the case of any minority that comes along. its when minorities are calling all the shots your problems arise.
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Mozzer
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Post by Mozzer on Nov 3, 2023 12:35:35 GMT
Well, we're not really talking about positive discrimination (whatever that might mean), are we? We're talking about highlighting things changing. So whilst people are breaking down barriers and making progress in changing the world for what I think many would agree is the better, making a virtue of that is a de facto good thing. If it annoys people, I'd say that's also good, because we're not in that ideal world and if it pisses people off that such things are highlighted, it might make some of them wonder why that's the case. If they remain pissed off at it being highlighted after they've considered that things still need to change for the better, that's probably because they don't really want things to change. So them being annoyed gives me some pleasure. A bigot having their piss boiled is always a pleasure. I've digressed slightly there, but going back to your comment, Orkney, how do you both highlight where things are improving and not identify that there are differences? Equality of opportunity is not about pretending everyone is the same. In many ways, it is about acknowledging that we are not all the same and that we do not all face the same issues in getting to the same place. A few points on your first paragraph. Firstly not all change can be viewed as being good. Hope your view of the bigot is not the usual subject who happens to be a middle aged white man with right wing views and womens rights have not been helped by the trans ideology that even kids are being subjected to. Perfection that will vary from each persons own point of view will never work if the majority are being road roughshod over for the case of any minority that comes along. its when minorities are calling all the shots your problems arise. I've got zero intention of getting into a debate about hypothetical bigots. But the point here is whether highlighting such change as we're seeing is positive or negative. If we assume that most of us see this as a good thing, then my question goes back to 'Why wouldn't you highlight it?' It is clearly far from the norm and so it is worthy of comment. I'm afraid I don't buy the 'stop talking about it or you just highlight difference' argument at all. The real, genuine difference exists behind the headline and that's what people need to consider. No-one is made more bigoted by this. Some might say they are, but that's excuse-making. You don't become more misogynistic because a woman has become a referee or whatever - you're just a misogynist who's triggered by being confronted with the failure of your own argument.
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Post by timberwolf on Nov 3, 2023 12:44:51 GMT
I've got zero intention of getting into a debate about hypothetical bigots. But the point here is whether highlighting such change as we're seeing is positive or negative. If we assume that most of us see this as a good thing, then my question goes back to 'Why wouldn't you highlight it?' It is clearly far from the norm and so it is worthy of comment. I'm afraid I don't buy the 'stop talking about it or you just highlight difference' argument at all. The real, genuine difference exists behind the headline and that's what people need to consider. No-one is made more bigoted by this. Some might say they are, but that's excuse-making. You don't become more misogynistic because a woman has become a referee or whatever - you're just a misogynist who's triggered by being confronted with the failure of your own argument. Think female match officials are old hat by now. You have to have zero interest in life never mind football to realise they have been us for numerous seasons now then why bother keep bringing the issue up in the media. Its like women bus and lorry drivers. At the outset they were well publicised but after a few years they became old hat as far as news was concerned. If only football followed the same path they might not be seen as a novelty in the game.
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Mozzer
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Post by Mozzer on Nov 3, 2023 12:58:08 GMT
I've got zero intention of getting into a debate about hypothetical bigots. But the point here is whether highlighting such change as we're seeing is positive or negative. If we assume that most of us see this as a good thing, then my question goes back to 'Why wouldn't you highlight it?' It is clearly far from the norm and so it is worthy of comment. I'm afraid I don't buy the 'stop talking about it or you just highlight difference' argument at all. The real, genuine difference exists behind the headline and that's what people need to consider. No-one is made more bigoted by this. Some might say they are, but that's excuse-making. You don't become more misogynistic because a woman has become a referee or whatever - you're just a misogynist who's triggered by being confronted with the failure of your own argument. Think female match officials are old hat by now. You have to have zero interest in life never mind football to realise they have been us for numerous seasons now then why bother keep bringing the issue up in the media. Its like women bus and lorry drivers. At the outset they were well publicised but after a few years they became old hat as far as news was concerned. If only football followed the same path they might not be seen as a novelty in the game. Well, this is specifically to do with the PL where it is still clearly relevant as a story. Though I think it's probably a matter of opinion as to whether female referees in professional are 'old hat'. What's more, whilst you still have dickheads shouting out abuse to women (see the story this week about some Gills fans and the Newport physio) the matter of whether it's become irrelevant remains a live one. I come back to the question as to whether highlighting it is detrimental to progress. In a similar vein, I'm afraid I've seen too many (including some of our own) say things like 'I'm not bothered about someone's sexuality, so shut up about it' and then dribble out some homophobic bullshit at another time. And all the time there's no 'out' professional footballer at the top level... The reasons for that are probably for another thread, but my point is that whilst things may be better than they were, we've got some way to go. And that doesn't happen by not acknowledging progress and highlighting it.
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