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Post by Bredburyhatter on Mar 16, 2024 21:35:55 GMT
History ain't my thing, but does anyone else think of an old bloke and condoms when they see the word Geronimo?
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Mar 16, 2024 21:47:56 GMT
A Nazi with good pr and not a lot to back it up He was just a soldier and was forced to commit suicide, to save his family. He very much had his reputation massaged during the war (to explain why we weren’t winning in Africa) and after the war as part of the Cold War. The “Good German” propaganda. He wasn’t a member of the Nazi Party but he was certainly a supporter of Hitler until it became clear they were going to lose the war under him.
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Post by nelly on Mar 16, 2024 22:01:40 GMT
He was just a soldier and was forced to commit suicide, to save his family. He very much had his reputation massaged during the war (to explain why we weren’t winning in Africa) and after the war as part of the Cold War. The “Good German” propaganda. He wasn’t a member of the Nazi Party but he was certainly a supporter of Hitler until it became clear they were going to lose the war under him. Why did American tank crews have pictures of him in their tanks when they invaded Iraq ?
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Post by hedleyverity on Mar 16, 2024 22:13:01 GMT
He very much had his reputation massaged during the war (to explain why we weren’t winning in Africa) and after the war as part of the Cold War. The “Good German” propaganda. He wasn’t a member of the Nazi Party but he was certainly a supporter of Hitler until it became clear they were going to lose the war under him. Why did American tank crews have pictures of him in their tanks when they invaded Iraq ? No idea if they did, how many did, or why, doesn’t prove anything anyway
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Mar 16, 2024 22:32:36 GMT
He very much had his reputation massaged during the war (to explain why we weren’t winning in Africa) and after the war as part of the Cold War. The “Good German” propaganda. He wasn’t a member of the Nazi Party but he was certainly a supporter of Hitler until it became clear they were going to lose the war under him. Why did American tank crews have pictures of him in their tanks when they invaded Iraq ? If they did then it just shows the propaganda worked doesn’t it?
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Post by nelly on Mar 16, 2024 22:33:09 GMT
Why did American tank crews have pictures of him in their tanks when they invaded Iraq ? No idea if they did, how many did, or why, doesn’t prove anything anyway Anyway, no such thing as a good Nazi.
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Post by nelly on Mar 16, 2024 22:36:48 GMT
Why did American tank crews have pictures of him in their tanks when they invaded Iraq ? If they did then it just shows the propaganda worked doesn’t it? And the Americans are idiots anyway.
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 22:39:58 GMT
Rommel was really good until he came up against Montgomery. Who then beat him hands down. He then went on to largely f*ck up the German defence of the Channel in 1944, leading to the ultimate success of D Day and eventual downfall of Nazi Germany. I give massive credit to Rommel for the gentlemanly manner in which he conducted warfare. He coined a phrase "war without hate". And he was also involved in the July '44 Bomb Plot against Hitler on humanitarian grounds. He was basically a decent guy working for an awful movement.
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 22:42:47 GMT
He was just a soldier and was forced to commit suicide, to save his family. He very much had his reputation massaged during the war (to explain why we weren’t winning in Africa) and after the war as part of the Cold War. The “Good German” propaganda. He wasn’t a member of the Nazi Party but he was certainly a supporter of Hitler until it became clear they were going to lose the war under him. He was involved, it is suggested, under some of the earlier assassination plots against Hitler (there were lots throughout the war). So I think this is a slightly frivolous accusation. If you read independent accounts of him he was a pretty good German. There weren't too many. But there were some. Hundreds of them were hung from piano wire throughout the war for making their stands against the Nazis. We should never forget that.
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Post by nelly on Mar 16, 2024 22:45:46 GMT
Rommel was really good until he came up against Montgomery. Who then beat him hands down. He then went on to largely f*ck up the German defence of the Channel in 1944, leading to the ultimate success of D Day and eventual downfall of Nazi Germany. I give massive credit to Rommel for the gentlemanly manner in which he conducted warfare. He coined a phrase "war without hate". And he was also involved in the July '44 Bomb Plot against Hitler on humanitarian grounds. He was basically a decent guy working for an awful movement. If he'd survived the war. Would he have been hung as a War criminal ?
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Post by hedleyverity on Mar 16, 2024 22:48:34 GMT
If they did then it just shows the propaganda worked doesn’t it? And the Americans are idiots anyway. Bet far more of them had photos of Pamela Anderson, not sure where she is on the all time military genius list?
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 22:53:30 GMT
Rate the greatest ten military commanders/generals in history, in your estimation. For me. 1) The Duke of Wellington 2) Napoleon 3) Georgi Zhukov 4) The Duke of Marlborough 5) Alexander of Macedon 6) Genghis Khan 7) Bill Slim 8) Hannibal 9) Geronimo 10) Caesar What do you reckon. C'mon County. Wellington smashed Napoleon (not at Trafalgar but in the Peninsular War after he took over from Sir John Moore). He of course helped hold the line at Waterloo but ultimately it was the arrival of Blucher (who SHOULD be in the top 10 of your list) who turned the battle. Horatio Nelson ought to get a mention to. A naval military genius. Zhukov - He was a bit of a reputational cuckoo. There were some absolutely astonishing commanders in the Soviet Army through World War 2. He was good, but Rokkosovskii, Konev, and Chuikov were better tacticians and leaders of men. In World War Two though. Montgomery was absolutely brilliant and totally under-rated. His soldiers (of which my grandfather was one, in the Cheshire Regiment) always felt that their individual lives mattered and that Montgomery would not waste them. Unfairly tarnished for the Arnhem debacle but the blame for that falls almost squarely on the unit commanders in situ, rather than him. It was a decent plan let down by his subordinates. Americans of course hate him, and rewrite the entire history of WW2 because they hate him - largely because he did, whilst Patton (THE most over-rated General in military history) spoke. I do not know enough about the others listed as it's not my area.
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 22:59:01 GMT
Rommel was really good until he came up against Montgomery. Who then beat him hands down. He then went on to largely f*ck up the German defence of the Channel in 1944, leading to the ultimate success of D Day and eventual downfall of Nazi Germany. I give massive credit to Rommel for the gentlemanly manner in which he conducted warfare. He coined a phrase "war without hate". And he was also involved in the July '44 Bomb Plot against Hitler on humanitarian grounds. He was basically a decent guy working for an awful movement. If he'd survived the war. Would he have been hung as a War criminal ? No chance. Very few were. Even of those directly implicated in The Final Solution. Guderian, Manstein, Doenitz, Von Runstedt, and so forth all survived (all rabid Nazis). Mohnke for example, who latterly led Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (1st SS Division), lived a healthy life to a ripe old age, despite his unit massacring their way across Russia and France throughout). b*stards Like many of his contemporaries he would have been involved in the German military at high level I imagine. Or gone into industry as so many did.
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Post by nelly on Mar 16, 2024 23:03:14 GMT
If he'd survived the war. Would he have been hung as a War criminal ? No chance. Very few were. Even of those directly implicated in The Final Solution. Guderian, Manstein, Doenitz, Von Runstedt, and so forth all survived (all rabid Nazis). Mohnke for example, who latterly led Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (1st SS Division), lived a healthy life to a ripe old age, despite his unit massacring their way across Russia and France throughout). b*stards Like many of his contemporaries he would have been involved in the German military at high level I imagine. Or gone into industry as so many did. Albert Speer lied through his back teeth and said sorry to save his own skin. Should of been hung.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Mar 16, 2024 23:05:20 GMT
He very much had his reputation massaged during the war (to explain why we weren’t winning in Africa) and after the war as part of the Cold War. The “Good German” propaganda. He wasn’t a member of the Nazi Party but he was certainly a supporter of Hitler until it became clear they were going to lose the war under him. He was involved, it is suggested, under some of the earlier assassination plots against Hitler (there were lots throughout the war). So I think this is a slightly frivolous accusation. If you read independent accounts of him he was a pretty good German. There weren't too many. But there were some. Hundreds of them were hung from piano wire throughout the war for making their stands against the Nazis. We should never forget that. I was only aware of him being involved in the 20th July plot (I’m aware there are others) but from what I remember (it’s been a long time since I’ve read up on it) he wasn’t a key part of it. More someone who knew about it and didn’t report it which is ultimately what did for him when it failed. He was, like most of the Wehrmacht, a soldier. Who when fighting the allies did treat them with respect and he certainly did earn a lot of respect from those who he fought against. I doubt he’d have been quite so respectful if he’d been on the Eastern front though. I’m certainly in favour of remembering those who resisted the Nazis from within Germany. A lot were commies though so they couldn’t be lauded during the Cold War quite like Rommel could. There are certainly grains of truth in the legend that grew around him, and he was a very good general and Field Marshall. The Afrika Korps deserved a lot of its reputation, both for its actions in battle and treatment of POWs before the Italians got to them. He just wasn’t as perfect or clean as the post war Cold War propaganda suggests. I guess what I’m trying to say is that while he wasn’t evil incarnate in the same way that SS Generals and the Nazi leadership was - he also isn’t this clean figure that the post war era held him up to be.
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