|
Post by nelly on Mar 18, 2024 13:37:45 GMT
Bomber Harris. Hero or villain ? Neither. Definitely not a hero. I think you have to be in or near the battle to be considered thus. I don't really think many Generals mentioned above were heroes. They were normally pretty safe. Not a villain either. We had no choice in using our bomber threat. It was the only way we could affect German industry and will to wage war directly. And, ultimately, the Germans 'wrote the rules' early in the war. We just played better by them. My late uncle was a flight engineer on Lancasters and would never talk about the bombing. He would talk about the training all day long. ie crash landing on the runway and the whole crew (unhurt) going straight to the bar. Only thing mentioned at his funeral is that he looked up to see another Lancaster above them about to drop it's bombs and told the pilot " I think we better move " Now he's a hero to me.
|
|
|
Post by nelly on Mar 18, 2024 13:41:22 GMT
That's a difficult one. If we look at it using modern standards, then he was a terrible person. What we do know is that Dresden, according to intelligence was a communications and rail hub where troops went through to get to the Russian front or the on going campaign in Italy, hence the reason for the attack. Throw in the Allied advance, the belief that there was a Nazi redoubt in Bavaria, the fear that Russia's advance would stall, the Nazis now had V2s which reached inner space and Churchill and his high command were worried about what the hell was going to come next, there were not enough infantrymen in the British or US armies (the US started to redeploy air force staff), the Nazis had started seeing Me 262s see service which posed a threat to the Allies air dominance ... And you end up in a situation where taking out certain hubs in Dresden and parts of an historic city become a very viable option in order to try and bring the end of the war that little bit closer. 25,000 deaths appears to be the accepted death toll, although misinformation from the Nazis, and still quoted by some people, was quoted as being 200,000. That's a lot of people for a night of raids. BH knew that streams of German refugees into other already beleaguered cities would cause chaos within Germany, and its ability to fight on. BH had a blue book that had all sorts of info in it, intel, mission reports, photos of bombed out cities, it's no wonder he had become dehumanised seeing it everyday. It was probably quite shocking at first, but by VE Day it probably seemed quite normal. Would I want him in charge of the social security system and or the NHS today? Absolutely not. But I'd have him in charge of the equivalent of Bomber Command today if we went to war. He understood his mission, he knew how to achieve it. Nuance is really important when looking at stuff like this. War today still involves killing other humans with ever increasing violence and efficiency, but it has far more laws and rules of engagement. In 5 years, the RAF had gone from targeted bombing and dropping leaflets in order to avoid bombing privately owned buildings to dropping as many bombs as it could get on to as many aircraft as it could get in to the sky on as much of an area as it could. That's some change of policy. Do I look down on BH and the crews of Bomber Command because they did it? No, not from my cosy life in 2024 with all of its fine morals and high standards. Calling BH a hero probably is unfair on those who lost their lives as a result of his decisions, but to call him a villain is unfair too. All in my humble opinion, of course Aye. Also, something rarely mentioned by those trying to re-write history and paint the good guys with a black brush. The Germans DID have kit up in the air blowing bombers out of the sky. I think I'm right in saying the highest rate of casualties in WW2 was the US air crew then British air crew (Americans higher as they did daylight bombing raids). And of course, had Hitler not arsed about with his magical weapons, the V1s the V2s and so forth (which did practically piss all), then the Germans could have put A LOT more into the air and possibly won that air battle. There's a documentary on Netflix or Amazon about why the Germans lost the war. Goes into forensic detail on some of the logistical f*ck ups that Hitler made. One of which was his 'terror' or 'revenge' weapons programmes. They reckon had he not bothered, he could have put 24,000 more Focke Wulf 190s into the air over German. 24,000 of one of the, if not THE, best fighter aircraft in World War 2. That might have spoilt a few days. Thank God Hitler was absolutely f*cking rubbish at waging war. The Nazis in WW2, organised chaos.
|
|
|
Post by stalybridgehatter on Mar 18, 2024 15:18:22 GMT
Aye. Also, something rarely mentioned by those trying to re-write history and paint the good guys with a black brush. The Germans DID have kit up in the air blowing bombers out of the sky. I think I'm right in saying the highest rate of casualties in WW2 was the US air crew then British air crew (Americans higher as they did daylight bombing raids). And of course, had Hitler not arsed about with his magical weapons, the V1s the V2s and so forth (which did practically piss all), then the Germans could have put A LOT more into the air and possibly won that air battle. There's a documentary on Netflix or Amazon about why the Germans lost the war. Goes into forensic detail on some of the logistical f*ck ups that Hitler made. One of which was his 'terror' or 'revenge' weapons programmes. They reckon had he not bothered, he could have put 24,000 more Focke Wulf 190s into the air over German. 24,000 of one of the, if not THE, best fighter aircraft in World War 2. That might have spoilt a few days. Thank God Hitler was absolutely f*cking rubbish at waging war. The Nazis in WW2, organised chaos. As you might expect, doing a German degree, we did a lot of lessons and seminars on Nazism and WW2, one thing I took away from it was that it was a feat in itself that they managed to achieve what they did! There were several Reichsministerium that wouldn't necessarily oversee the same thing but would have over lapping responsibilities. All that caused was conflict and confusion because the heads of ministry would simply try and out Nazi the other to curry favour Hitler ...
|
|
|
Post by bigmartin on Mar 18, 2024 16:41:22 GMT
The Nazis in WW2, organised chaos. As you might expect, doing a German degree, we did a lot of lessons and seminars on Nazism and WW2, one thing I took away from it was that it was a feat in itself that they managed to achieve what they did! There were several Reichsministerium that wouldn't necessarily oversee the same thing but would have over lapping responsibilities. All that caused was conflict and confusion because the heads of ministry would simply try and out Nazi the other to curry favour Hitler ... I think the one that always makes me laugh (in a sardonic rather than humorous way) is the fact of sending literally thousands of wagons around Europe carrying civilians to their deaths when the military probably could really have used all those trains and transportation. They literally holocausted themselves into a poorer position on the battlefield. World War Two's full of all manner of such bizarreness. Going after Stalingrad, which largely had practically no strategic merit, because it had Stalin's name. And completely ignoring the Caucasus which was the home of enough fuel to power the Nazi war machine for years. Declaring war on America. Lunacy of the highest order. Just absolute political insanity. America was practically tearing itself apart to try avoid sending troops to Europe. Every 'Festung' order he ever gave. "Derrr...sure, we COUUULD, save our Army here and tactically withdraw it to live and fight another day". "Or we could let it be destroyed to a man". "We'll let them be destroyed". Off his tits on drugs of course (thanks Doc) most of the time.
|
|
|
Post by scfc73 on Mar 18, 2024 17:55:02 GMT
Surely Nelson has to be on any list or do Naval commanders not count?
|
|
|
Post by stalybridgehatter on Mar 18, 2024 18:27:39 GMT
As you might expect, doing a German degree, we did a lot of lessons and seminars on Nazism and WW2, one thing I took away from it was that it was a feat in itself that they managed to achieve what they did! There were several Reichsministerium that wouldn't necessarily oversee the same thing but would have over lapping responsibilities. All that caused was conflict and confusion because the heads of ministry would simply try and out Nazi the other to curry favour Hitler ... I think the one that always makes me laugh (in a sardonic rather than humorous way) is the fact of sending literally thousands of wagons around Europe carrying civilians to their deaths when the military probably could really have used all those trains and transportation. They literally holocausted themselves into a poorer position on the battlefield. World War Two's full of all manner of such bizarreness. Going after Stalingrad, which largely had practically no strategic merit, because it had Stalin's name. And completely ignoring the Caucasus which was the home of enough fuel to power the Nazi war machine for years. Declaring war on America. Lunacy of the highest order. Just absolute political insanity. America was practically tearing itself apart to try avoid sending troops to Europe. Every 'Festung' order he ever gave. "Derrr...sure, we COUUULD, save our Army here and tactically withdraw it to live and fight another day". "Or we could let it be destroyed to a man". "We'll let them be destroyed". Off his tits on drugs of course (thanks Doc) most of the time. I always liked the fact he didn't like vases of cut flowers because he didn't like being surrounded by dying things.
|
|
|
Post by nelly on Mar 18, 2024 18:42:02 GMT
I think the one that always makes me laugh (in a sardonic rather than humorous way) is the fact of sending literally thousands of wagons around Europe carrying civilians to their deaths when the military probably could really have used all those trains and transportation. They literally holocausted themselves into a poorer position on the battlefield. World War Two's full of all manner of such bizarreness. Going after Stalingrad, which largely had practically no strategic merit, because it had Stalin's name. And completely ignoring the Caucasus which was the home of enough fuel to power the Nazi war machine for years. Declaring war on America. Lunacy of the highest order. Just absolute political insanity. America was practically tearing itself apart to try avoid sending troops to Europe. Every 'Festung' order he ever gave. "Derrr...sure, we COUUULD, save our Army here and tactically withdraw it to live and fight another day". "Or we could let it be destroyed to a man". "We'll let them be destroyed". Off his tits on drugs of course (thanks Doc) most of the time. I always liked the fact he didn't like vases of cut flowers because he didn't like being surrounded by dying things. Teetotal vegetarian who loved animals, had bad breath and suffered with stomach problems. If only they'd let him in art school in Vienna, or the bloke shot him in WW1.
|
|
fb
Contributor
Posts: 721
|
Post by fb on Mar 18, 2024 18:55:09 GMT
Surely Nelson has to be on any list or do Naval commanders not count? Hugh Dowding and Nelson could easily have been on the list on another day, or headed a different list for naval/aerial commanders. May need a whole new list or two.
|
|
|
Post by Count de Stockport on Mar 18, 2024 19:41:48 GMT
Surely Nelson has to be on any list or do Naval commanders not count? If we’re counting naval commanders then Themistocles definitely belongs here. Augustus as well. And whoever commanded Rome’s navy against naval superpower Carthage in the First Punic War (up until which, Rome didn’t really have a navy)
|
|
|
Post by scfc73 on Mar 19, 2024 17:46:56 GMT
Surely Nelson has to be on any list or do Naval commanders not count? If we’re counting naval commanders then Themistocles definitely belongs here. Augustus as well. And whoever commanded Rome’s navy against naval superpower Carthage in the First Punic War (up until which, Rome didn’t really have a navy) Plus Charles Howard. Admiral in charge during the defeat of the Spanish armada.
|
|