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Post by timberwolf on May 21, 2024 9:23:01 GMT
Back in those days I don’t think we sold out games without giving the opposition 2 sides of the ground did we? And quite a lot of the games where we had full houses back then the away fans were in a lot more than 2 sides of the ground- City, Sunderland, Forest etc, we’ve got far more County fans going now than for 50 or 60 years Think you need to go back to 66/7 champions season to get back to regular 5 figure numbers of regular home fans coming to EP. At the moment ground expansion is a big must and not about improvements for the future and MS legacy to the town and club. If family demands meant you had to extend your property that was suitable for that you,d do it or move. The latter fortunetly now is something we need not worry about.
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Post by timberwolf on May 21, 2024 9:30:59 GMT
I genuinely think if we didn’t have the Cheadle End we’d still be in non league. Certainly no Stott takeover. We’d be seen as smaller than someone like Rochdale with two small open end terraces. I agree with this. It helped us grow as a club without a shadow of a doubt. Which is why we need another one at the wank RE and the rest that follows. Way overdue. In fact right now it’s too overdue! We need this extra capacity for the person who like many before have thought i,ve nothing to do today so i,ll pop along to EP to see County. Now they,ll have to think twice because all there is available will be an open seated area and will more than likely swerve it. Everyone does their first game and usually a bit of a floater before you become a regular. We could be missing out of many like that who might actually find somewhere else to go. Its not as if we are Carlisle with no other local choices available.
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Post by Henry Pratt on May 21, 2024 9:51:29 GMT
With the ST news, surely even the ground naysayers accept that we need to develop EP asap, and go as big as possible? I'm not sure anyone can claim "12,000 is enough" or similar figures that were being bandied about. We're going to sell out virtually every game next season, and we're only in Division 3. Something's happening and I'm not sure anyone really predicted it. If we do continue on an upward trajectory, I can see us regularly selling out the proposed interim Main Stand/Railway End development as soon as it's done. The potential problem, if the ground doesn't get increased soon, is going up to the Championship and regularly turning people away. Even then, I'm not even sure the ultimate aim of 18,000 is going to be enough. I might be getting carried away, but selling 1000 season tickets in a few hours, on top of what we've sold anyway (because no matter what happens with renewals, these are all new ST holders) is astonishing, frankly. I still want to see the money required and where it is coming from I get the plan and understand the ambition but sticking us with £40-60M of debt in the hope that we continue to progress (and maintain interest when we don’t) but as it is £2-3M each year just to pay the interest on those developments (£5-7M on a super-competitive 15 year Commercial Mortgage) and we still won’t own the ground..?!?!? Be careful what you wish for… you might just get it! I think as a general rule of thumb, if Dave S is concerned, take it seriously. He's got a decent track record on these things. So yeah, I do get your concerns, Dave. Thing is, though, what are our options right now? If you're ruling out moving away, I can only see do nothing or redevelop. Even a small redevelopment will cost serious money, so I'm not sure that - rather than the full-scale plans - is an option. So we either do nothing and sell out the place every week, turning away thousands, and probably putting ticket prices past £30 in a year or two, or we commit to the redevelopment and the subsequent debt. Do you agree that those are the only two real options? Given that, I can't see anything other than the redevelopment and the debt as being the only real option. So what's the nightmare scenario? Stott falls under a bus, or decides he's had enough and plays hardball after he's left. I don't think either are really feasible based on his dealings so far, but even if we do have the worst of all possible worlds, how would it play out? The council still own the ground, yeah? So if we did go bump we'd do a Bury at EP, I guess. If that's the - extremely remote - end game for the nightmare scenario... I'd take it tbh, certainly over not doing anything and trying to compete in a 10,000 capacity EP. EDIT: Sorry Dave, replied before reading the rest of the thread and see you've covered the issues in your replies, so fair dos.
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Post by Imposter on May 21, 2024 11:53:43 GMT
8323 in that first season. A slightly more realistic average was in the second season after the excitement of it being the first season and the promotion push, that was 7,500. FWIW, in our relegation season, 2001/02, we averaged 6,245. It dropped to 5,489 the following season when we finished mid-table in L1.
Out of interest, anyone have any idea how many season tickets we were selling back then?
I think 97-98 broke records with around 4.5k
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Post by Imposter on May 21, 2024 11:58:41 GMT
Back in those days I don’t think we sold out games without giving the opposition 2 sides of the ground did we? And quite a lot of the games where we had full houses back then the away fans were in a lot more than 2 sides of the ground- City, Sunderland, Forest etc, we’ve got far more County fans going now than for 50 or 60 years When we were playing Forest we weren't yet in the practice of giving them the two sides of the ground teams like Coventry and Wednesday had a few years later, nor were they bringing as many. Going back to 97-98 and 98-99 and many supposed big clubs who these days would bring 2 or 3 thousand were only bringing 1000 or 1500 or even sub-1000 - Forest, Sheff Utd, West Brom, etc... Back when they'd get the terraced Railway End and a few seats. I'll try and remember to look up the visiting supporter figures from a programme from that season when I'm home tonight.
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Mozzer
Contributor
Posts: 1,332
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Post by Mozzer on May 21, 2024 12:34:51 GMT
And quite a lot of the games where we had full houses back then the away fans were in a lot more than 2 sides of the ground- City, Sunderland, Forest etc, we’ve got far more County fans going now than for 50 or 60 years When we were playing Forest we weren't yet in the practice of giving them the two sides of the ground teams like Coventry and Wednesday had a few years later, nor were they bringing as many. Going back to 97-98 and 98-99 and many supposed big clubs who these days would bring 2 or 3 thousand were only bringing 1000 or 1500 or even sub-1000 - Forest, Sheff Utd, West Brom, etc... Back when they'd get the terraced Railway End and a few seats. I'll try and remember to look up the visiting supporter figures from a programme from that season when I'm home tonight. Agreed on giving teams 2 sides very rarely. We weren't booted out of the Pop Side until our final year in that division. We'd been kicked out occasionally before that, but not very often. Sheff Wed and Udds ring a bell. Definitely weren't kicked out for the first two City games. Especially as I recall in that first game some City fan came over 2 or 3 rows of seats at the back of the stand to punch me in the back of the head... Also definitely recall being in there for games against Forest, Sunderland, Wolves, Palace the day they cheated to stay up, etc.
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Post by incrediblechunk on May 21, 2024 12:36:54 GMT
When we were playing Forest we weren't yet in the practice of giving them the two sides of the ground teams like Coventry and Wednesday had a few years later, nor were they bringing as many. Going back to 97-98 and 98-99 and many supposed big clubs who these days would bring 2 or 3 thousand were only bringing 1000 or 1500 or even sub-1000 - Forest, Sheff Utd, West Brom, etc... Back when they'd get the terraced Railway End and a few seats. I'll try and remember to look up the visiting supporter figures from a programme from that season when I'm home tonight. Agreed on giving teams 2 sides very rarely. We weren't booted out of the Pop Side until our final year in that division. We'd been kicked out occasionally before that, but not very often. Sheff Wed and Udds ring a bell. Definitely weren't kicked out for the first two City games. Especially as I recall in that first game some City fan came over 2 or 3 rows of seats at the back of the stand to punch me in the back of the head... Also definitely recall being in there for games against Forest, Sunderland, Wolves, Palace the day they cheated to stay up, etc. Did the name include the word bean?
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Post by stevie57 on May 21, 2024 13:00:42 GMT
Who does actually own EP ?
As the leaseholder, I assumed it effectively was the club until 2272 (though with minimal conditions like no cuckoos or cuckoo sports), only after which would it revert to the Council, or be extended.
Has the agreement actually been signed yet ?
Apologies if this has been answered before and I’ve missed it, but a number of times in this thread the Council’s ownership of EP has been mentioned as though it means something, but what does that ownership actually mean in practical terms, or is it just a legal thing ?
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Post by hedleyverity on May 21, 2024 13:18:45 GMT
Who does actually own EP ? As the leaseholder, I assumed it effectively was the club until 2272 (though with minimal conditions like no cuckoos or cuckoo sports), only after which would it revert to the Council, or be extended. Has the agreement actually been signed yet ? Apologies if this has been answered before and I’ve missed it, but a number of times in this thread the Council’s ownership of EP has been mentioned as though it means something, but what does that ownership actually mean in practical terms, or is it just a legal thing ? Presumably it makes a difference for borrowing secured on the ground
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Post by mat1scfc on May 21, 2024 13:21:32 GMT
Who does actually own EP ? As the leaseholder, I assumed it effectively was the club until 2272 (though with minimal conditions like no cuckoos or cuckoo sports), only after which would it revert to the Council, or be extended. Has the agreement actually been signed yet ? Apologies if this has been answered before and I’ve missed it, but a number of times in this thread the Council’s ownership of EP has been mentioned as though it means something, but what does that ownership actually mean in practical terms, or is it just a legal thing ? nope the leased hasn't been signed yet. The current one is about 30 years. It's been said on here a few times so you should be able to find it somewhere I think it's something like 88k a month or 88k a year to rent
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Post by hattersmatters on May 21, 2024 13:22:25 GMT
And quite a lot of the games where we had full houses back then the away fans were in a lot more than 2 sides of the ground- City, Sunderland, Forest etc, we’ve got far more County fans going now than for 50 or 60 years When we were playing Forest we weren't yet in the practice of giving them the two sides of the ground teams like Coventry and Wednesday had a few years later, nor were they bringing as many. Going back to 97-98 and 98-99 and many supposed big clubs who these days would bring 2 or 3 thousand were only bringing 1000 or 1500 or even sub-1000 - Forest, Sheff Utd, West Brom, etc... Back when they'd get the terraced Railway End and a few seats. I'll try and remember to look up the visiting supporter figures from a programme from that season when I'm home tonight.
Not got round to adding the away figures for the 1998/99 season yet (programmes from that season are in storage) but i have the ones for the 1997/98 season here. This is based on figures listed in County's programme hence why the Sheffield United figure isn't shown as it was the last game of the season.
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Post by suedehead on May 22, 2024 12:01:11 GMT
When we were playing Forest we weren't yet in the practice of giving them the two sides of the ground teams like Coventry and Wednesday had a few years later, nor were they bringing as many. Going back to 97-98 and 98-99 and many supposed big clubs who these days would bring 2 or 3 thousand were only bringing 1000 or 1500 or even sub-1000 - Forest, Sheff Utd, West Brom, etc... Back when they'd get the terraced Railway End and a few seats. I'll try and remember to look up the visiting supporter figures from a programme from that season when I'm home tonight. Not got round to adding the away figures for the 1998/99 season yet (programmes from that season are in storage) but i have the ones for the 1997/98 season here. This is based on figures listed in County's programme hence why the Sheffield United figure isn't shown as it was the last game of the season. That Port Vale away attendance is very low. Is that the game that was moved because Diana died? Even on a Tuesday I thought we'd have taken more than 400. Same with just 300 to Birmingham, again another week night. I wonder what the actual Portsmouth attendance was? It was at least 1 because I was there, was a Tuesday night in the February half term.
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Post by hedleyverity on May 22, 2024 13:53:06 GMT
Not got round to adding the away figures for the 1998/99 season yet (programmes from that season are in storage) but i have the ones for the 1997/98 season here. This is based on figures listed in County's programme hence why the Sheffield United figure isn't shown as it was the last game of the season. That Port Vale away attendance is very low. Is that the game that was moved because Diana died? Even on a Tuesday I thought we'd have taken more than 400. Same with just 300 to Birmingham, again another week night. I wonder what the actual Portsmouth attendance was? It was at least 1 because I was there, was a Tuesday night in the February half term. 97/8 was the only season I did every game. Vale was moved to the Tuesday because of the Princess of Hearts, which was a right pain in the arse, the Brum game was the Tom Bennett leg breaker, horrible night, unless I’m getting things mixed up after this time we’d played them on the Saturday in the cup and taken loads, but there was hardly anyone there on the Tuesday. ETA, Ipswich was a Tuesday night too, Ipswich and Portsmouth mid week, thanks League
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Post by suedehead on May 22, 2024 14:30:16 GMT
That Port Vale away attendance is very low. Is that the game that was moved because Diana died? Even on a Tuesday I thought we'd have taken more than 400. Same with just 300 to Birmingham, again another week night. I wonder what the actual Portsmouth attendance was? It was at least 1 because I was there, was a Tuesday night in the February half term. 97/8 was the only season I did every game. Vale was moved to the Tuesday because of the Princess of Hearts, which was a right pain in the arse, the Brum game was the Tom Bennett leg breaker, horrible night, unless I’m getting things mixed up after this time we’d played them on the Saturday in the cup and taken loads, but there was hardly anyone there on the Tuesday. ETA, Ipswich was a Tuesday night too, Ipswich and Portsmouth mid week, thanks League Yep, Brum was defo the Tuesday Bennett game. Side stand for the league game, but think we'd been behind the goal on the Saturday? Steve Bruce scored, I think, and celebrated right in front of us. Didn't go to Ipswich but was at Portsmouth. Was a really warm day (for February), had a walk around the city but was freezing by kick off time.
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Mozzer
Contributor
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Post by Mozzer on May 22, 2024 15:00:15 GMT
Don't think Bruce scored (though he could well have celebrated their winner in front of us - I've blanked that). He would have done well to have bagged one, given that most of his time that day was spent refereeing the game...
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