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Post by suedehead on Aug 6, 2024 10:44:05 GMT
Yep, absolutely. It frightens me to think back to when I was younger and how easy it is to get caught up in situations that are escalating. A couple of dumb decisions and your life is turned upside down. I'd imagine most of these lads are the same. They've not planned for weeks, or even days, how to do this. They've gone along, probably full of frustration and anger and they've made a series of stupid decisions. That's not to excuse them, they deserve everything they get for their part in it. And age isn't really an excuse when some of the ones mentioned above are in their 30s and 40s, but I can definitely see how younger lads get swept up in it all. The starting point is surely that you have to have hate in your heart though right? I can't think of any point in my life where I felt so strongly about a group of people that I'd riot and attempt to do them harm. It's a mental mis-wire for me. The mice in their attics have chewed through the wiring. Probably too much Social Media and utterly propagandized. Yeah, absolutely. I don't think you go from a complete standing start and being completely neutral to lobbing a bin through a window because you got a bit carried away with the mood. It's a complex mix of frustrations, anger, resentment, inability to properly understand and process those emotions, not quite knowing your place in the world etc and all of that fuelled by social media hatred/disinformation. Plus a million other things. And I get that's over simplistic but all to say I agree with your sentiment. You have to be on a bit of a spiral in the first place to escalate to taking part in the disorder we've seen. My wider (quite flimsy) point was in more general terms, away from this kind of disorder. I remember being in a pub when I was really young, like 17/18, and there was some petty fued between a lad we were with and someone who had been spotted walking nearby. Loads of little men/boys trying to be tough and not look weak stormed out and gave the other lad a kicking. Quite a few got arrested. Could easily have been a lot worse. Nobody woke up that morning wanting to leather somebody, and most were who you'd consider to be 'nice lads' but they all got carried away, egged each other on, didn't want to be the one who didn't do anything etc. It's easily done, especially when younger.
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Post by suedehead on Aug 6, 2024 10:51:02 GMT
1000 pages of pro-Labour liberal lefty woke nonsense.
Well done, comrades.
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Post by palmersears on Aug 6, 2024 10:53:30 GMT
Yep, absolutely. It frightens me to think back to when I was younger and how easy it is to get caught up in situations that are escalating. A couple of dumb decisions and your life is turned upside down. I'd imagine most of these lads are the same. They've not planned for weeks, or even days, how to do this. They've gone along, probably full of frustration and anger and they've made a series of stupid decisions. That's not to excuse them, they deserve everything they get for their part in it. And age isn't really an excuse when some of the ones mentioned above are in their 30s and 40s, but I can definitely see how younger lads get swept up in it all. The starting point is surely that you have to have hate in your heart though right? I can't think of any point in my life where I felt so strongly about a group of people that I'd riot and attempt to do them harm. It's a mental mis-wire for me. The mice in their attics have chewed through the wiring. Probably too much Social Media and utterly propagandized. Nobody is born racist, as the saying goes. But then you see videos of a child in Belfast shouting "Get the P*kis out" whilst her mum gleefully smiles along and you begin to understand that there are pockets of our society that have such deep-rooted, generational racism, born of some unfathomable fear of anybody who doesn't look like they do, that they are completely lost to the wider world, and drag their kids down with them. They get from fear to panic to anger to hate over a few months/years and then all hope is lost.
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Post by bigmartin on Aug 6, 2024 11:22:22 GMT
The starting point is surely that you have to have hate in your heart though right? I can't think of any point in my life where I felt so strongly about a group of people that I'd riot and attempt to do them harm. It's a mental mis-wire for me. The mice in their attics have chewed through the wiring. Probably too much Social Media and utterly propagandized. Nobody is born racist, as the saying goes. But then you see videos of a child in Belfast shouting "Get the P*kis out" whilst her mum gleefully smiles along and you begin to understand that there are pockets of our society that have such deep-rooted, generational racism, born of some unfathomable fear of anybody who doesn't look like they do, that they are completely lost to the wider world, and drag their kids down with them. They get from fear to panic to anger to hate over a few months/years and then all hope is lost. 100% agree. I can't fathom adults though who, when exposed to the wider world, retain that hatred. I work with a bloke who I've known from childhood who's virulently racist. I will have mentioned him before. He'll say the most heinous things about Asians. Then he'll take a call from one of our favourite clients, a Pakistani, who's one of the nicest and funniest guys you could ever meet. My mate will speak on the phone for an hour with him laughing until he's practically crying. Next call could easily be from a longstanding Indian client whom we've looked after for 20 years who, again, is absolutely lovely. Then I'll be on the piss or something and he'll say something. I'll say "hang on mate. Is that what you really think about Humayun, and Dharmendra?". He'll just shrug it off. I still don't know if he believes what he's saying or if he's just acting when he speaks to these people. But when I try to explain to him that's it's unfair, it's dangerous, and it's really disrespectful (given that these guys literally pay his salary and bonus) he just won't hear it. It's weird. Weird with a capital W. And I can't fathom it. Work completely changed me at 21 years old (for the better, having been brought up in a casually racist environment). He's 58.
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Post by vicar on Aug 6, 2024 11:26:19 GMT
The starting point is surely that you have to have hate in your heart though right? I can't think of any point in my life where I felt so strongly about a group of people that I'd riot and attempt to do them harm. It's a mental mis-wire for me. The mice in their attics have chewed through the wiring. Probably too much Social Media and utterly propagandized. Nobody is born racist, as the saying goes. But then you see videos of a child in Belfast shouting "Get the P*kis out" whilst her mum gleefully smiles along and you begin to understand that there are pockets of our society that have such deep-rooted, generational racism, born of some unfathomable fear of anybody who doesn't look like they do, that they are completely lost to the wider world, and drag their kids down with them. They get from fear to panic to anger to hate over a few months/years and then all hope is lost. I was brought up racist, not by my parents but the environment I grew up in, there was very little push back from anyone so I just went along with it until sometime in my 20s.
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Post by bigmartin on Aug 6, 2024 11:29:50 GMT
Nobody is born racist, as the saying goes. But then you see videos of a child in Belfast shouting "Get the P*kis out" whilst her mum gleefully smiles along and you begin to understand that there are pockets of our society that have such deep-rooted, generational racism, born of some unfathomable fear of anybody who doesn't look like they do, that they are completely lost to the wider world, and drag their kids down with them. They get from fear to panic to anger to hate over a few months/years and then all hope is lost. I was brought up racist, not by my parents but the environment I grew up in, there was very little push back from anyone so I just went along with it until sometime in my 20s. Same. I still get angry at my parents sometimes even though they're both gone. Particularly my mum who's my hero and really ought to have known better as she was very intelligent and savvy. Perhaps had she been around to know her granddaughter who was born very early, at 1pd 11oz and looked after by a very skilful Asian doctor, she might have changed. But I'm not sure.
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Post by bristolhatter on Aug 6, 2024 12:15:44 GMT
Statements like this are part of the problem. The word fascism gets thrown around far too loosely, were their fascists involved in the riots? I have no doubts. Are there fascists in the "anti racist" counter protest lot? Absolutely! As has been mentioned, many of those convicted (or indeed not wise/experienced enough to know to cover faces, how to tread the line without getting arrested etc) will have been angry people who turned up without intention to do what they did and got swept up in the chaos. To say they're all fascist is just lazy and just fuels the ongoing us/them divide. There won’t have been fascists on the anti racist counter protest. There may well have been authoritarians but not fascists. Fascism is loosely (and it is loose by its very nature) an authoritarian ideology built around nationalism. The nationalist part is about the only bit that’s universal across fascist ideology as it’s very much a broad strokes non ideological ideology. You very much get left wing authoritarians, no denying that and I’ve argued vehemently with a few over the years. They’re not fascists though. Fair enough, perhaps I could have worded it better but those who wish to impose their views on others are in my opinion no better than the "fascists". For instance, I would still contend that a significant number of those within the "anti racist" brigade are anti semitic, i was appalled by the thinly veiled antisemitism in Bristol during the pro Palestine rallies but yet there were plenty who were not and had genuine concerns about the conflict and the innocent casualties. It would be wrong of me to tar everyone on those protests as anti semites and it would be wrong to say everyone who protested in the last few days is a racist. They have grievances, some legitimate, some not and some very misplaced. All sides have d1ckheads, and we should call out d1ckhead behaviour on all sides, unfortunately most people seem to be stuck by taking one side or the other. A lot of the socio economic problems are genuine but the direct cause is not simply immigration. Conversely, it would be inaccurate to say that the higher levels of immigration do not impact and exacerbate these problems. Additional stress on housing and public services, combined with successive government failure to provide a coherent strategy to meet the demand has resulted in communities feeling forgotten and without hope. It is wrong to lay all society's ills on immigration or use the rhetoric used by the "far right" to describe immigrants, but to fob anyone off who raises concerns about how to integrate unprecedented levels of immigration into society or provide the additional services needed to house and provide for these people as thick or racist only reinforces the divisions we would all like to see eradicated.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Aug 6, 2024 12:16:32 GMT
1000 pages of pro-Labour liberal lefty woke nonsense. Well done, comrades.
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Post by suedehead on Aug 6, 2024 12:33:30 GMT
I watched this on Netflix the other night, another Ken Loach dose of reality. Quite appropriate though, given where we are.
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Post by bigmartin on Aug 6, 2024 12:37:56 GMT
I watched this on Netflix the other night, another Ken Loach dose of reality. Quite appropriate though, given where we are. Coincidentally I happened upon "Imperium" last night with Daniel Radcliffe in it. Also appropriate given where we (or they...the USA) are. He plays a nerdy FBI agent who infiltrates a far right group in the USA. Enjoyed it. He was very good in it.
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Post by Bilby on Aug 6, 2024 13:03:24 GMT
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Post by Nik on Aug 6, 2024 13:04:29 GMT
I won't be watching that; perhaps summarise the information that is relevant? (Assuming you've watched it all)
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Post by suedehead on Aug 6, 2024 13:13:29 GMT
Don't post links from that rag.
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Post by Bilby on Aug 6, 2024 13:29:18 GMT
I won't be watching that; perhaps summarise the information that is relevant? (Assuming you've watched it all) Only seen the first part due to constant buffering but so far Fine upstanding family who respect the Police Victims of misinformation from sources linked to police and online bullying Victims of unreasonable aggressive policing similar to as seen overnight in other cities
AIR
Will do a proper summary in the morning
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Post by Nik on Aug 6, 2024 13:31:21 GMT
I won't be watching that; perhaps summarise the information that is relevant? (Assuming you've watched it all) Only seen the first part due to constant buffering but so far Fine upstanding family who respect the Police Victims of misinformation from sources linked to police and online bullying Victims of unreasonable aggressive policing similar to as seen overnight in other cities
AIR
Will do a proper summary in the morning
Why would any of that be for my info?
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