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Post by Stranded Hatter on Sept 1, 2024 23:25:57 GMT
Well they can't go after the wealthier targets can they, because the entire country f*cking melts down over it apparently. I don't know the solution. I just don't think the overwhelming majority of pensioners in 2024 are anywhere near as desperate as is made out. If some are, then help them by all means. If someone can come on here and persuade me that I've got this entirely wrong and that the demographic in question are totally f*cked, and really struggling chronically financially, then I'm open to having the error of my ways pointed out. But it's just not my experience at all. We agree about the wealthier targets. I don't disagree about the well off pensioners either, all about personal experience I think. My Grandparents worked all their lives, My Nanna a carer for the disabled and Grandad after the SAS a labourer, they had a tiny bit in private pensions (12 and 18 quid a month each) but they never could afford their own house and were certainly not minted. If my granddad hadn’t had a family home bought for him by his employer (remember when firms used to do things like that?) my dad would be destitute. No way he could get by on just the state pension and no private pension when he was forced into early retirement and spent a significant chunk of his adult life on incapacity. He struggles to get by as it is even with a fully paid for roof over his head. I bring him up because while he’s lucky enough to have that roof, I can imagine a lot of people with his level of income having rent to pay on top. It’s all well and good saying people should have private pensions but 1. A lot of people barely get by with the income the do get without paying into a pension 2. Some pension schemes offer actually awful returns 3. if someone gets to that age without one it’s no good saying “tough shit you’re on your own” - we should be better than that. It’s why I’ll always bang on about protecting the state pension. It should be enough for people to get by. If people have a nice big juicy private pension on top they’ll be paying income tax on that anyway.
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Post by bigmartin on Sept 1, 2024 23:37:19 GMT
We agree about the wealthier targets. I don't disagree about the well off pensioners either, all about personal experience I think. My Grandparents worked all their lives, My Nanna a carer for the disabled and Grandad after the SAS a labourer, they had a tiny bit in private pensions (12 and 18 quid a month each) but they never could afford their own house and were certainly not minted. If my granddad hadn’t had a family home bought for him by his employer (remember when firms used to do things like that?) my dad would be destitute. No way he could get by on just the state pension and no private pension when he was forced into early retirement and spent a significant chunk of his adult life on incapacity. He struggles to get by as it is even with a fully paid for roof over his head. I bring him up because while he’s lucky enough to have that roof, I can imagine a lot of people with his level of income having rent to pay on top. It’s all well and good saying people should have private pensions but 1. A lot of people barely get by with the income the do get without paying into a pension 2. Some pension schemes offer actually awful returns 3. if someone gets to that age without one it’s no good saying “tough shit you’re on your own” - we should be better than that. It’s why I’ll always bang on about protecting the state pension. It should be enough for people to get by. If people have a nice big juicy private pension on top they’ll be paying income tax on that anyway. I totally agree with your comment on the State Pension. But it's not free money (as I know, that you know) and it has to be paid for. And when you have political parties who's modus operandi is to campaign on low taxation, supported into Government by demographics who dogmatically vote for "Governments of low taxation" then there's always going to be a reckoning at some point farther down the line. And here we are...
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Post by timberwolf on Sept 2, 2024 8:35:54 GMT
Correct, I don't have the exact figures but those who miss out on it by having paid a full stamp are hardly rich though. It's the richest demographic though isn't it? And there's an argument amongst some other demographics to say that it's the demographic that has shown the least empathy for the impact of their choices on other demographics. And also a demographic who, speaking generally, has shunned paying higher taxes but conversely always demanded pensions far in excess of what the country can afford to pay. There's a lot of chickens coming home to roost I'm afraid. There was always, at some point, going to be a reckoning in terms of the ultimate repercussions of people in this country's choices around their vote, taxation and priorities made by convening Governments when in control. Pensioners who need it should be helped, no question. But there's a significant percentage of Pensioners who simply don't need it (but will always take it). Can say the same about families who do not need family allowance as well. Not exactly loaded myself but some will be far worse off than i am. How many of us pensioners put that money aside to pay heating bills. I,d guess very few. Will they freeze next winter. Again i,d guess very few. The biggest gripe pensioners do have is many paid a much higher percentage of their wages in income tax than workers of today with a rate at one time being over 30% base rate.
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Post by hedleyverity on Sept 2, 2024 8:41:51 GMT
It's the richest demographic though isn't it? And there's an argument amongst some other demographics to say that it's the demographic that has shown the least empathy for the impact of their choices on other demographics. And also a demographic who, speaking generally, has shunned paying higher taxes but conversely always demanded pensions far in excess of what the country can afford to pay. There's a lot of chickens coming home to roost I'm afraid. There was always, at some point, going to be a reckoning in terms of the ultimate repercussions of people in this country's choices around their vote, taxation and priorities made by convening Governments when in control. Pensioners who need it should be helped, no question. But there's a significant percentage of Pensioners who simply don't need it (but will always take it). Can say the same about families who do not need family allowance as well. Not exactly loaded myself but some will be far worse off than i am. How many of us pensioners put that money aside to pay heating bills. I,d guess very few. Will they freeze next winter. Again i,d guess very few. The biggest gripe pensioners do have is many paid a much higher percentage of their wages in income tax than workers of today with a rate at one time being over 30% base rate. They’ll be forgetting how much lower other taxes were though, such as VAT
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Post by timberwolf on Sept 2, 2024 8:41:59 GMT
If my granddad hadn’t had a family home bought for him by his employer (remember when firms used to do things like that?) my dad would be destitute. No way he could get by on just the state pension and no private pension when he was forced into early retirement and spent a significant chunk of his adult life on incapacity. He struggles to get by as it is even with a fully paid for roof over his head. I bring him up because while he’s lucky enough to have that roof, I can imagine a lot of people with his level of income having rent to pay on top. It’s all well and good saying people should have private pensions but 1. A lot of people barely get by with the income the do get without paying into a pension 2. Some pension schemes offer actually awful returns 3. if someone gets to that age without one it’s no good saying “tough shit you’re on your own” - we should be better than that. It’s why I’ll always bang on about protecting the state pension. It should be enough for people to get by. If people have a nice big juicy private pension on top they’ll be paying income tax on that anyway. I totally agree with your comment on the State Pension. But it's not free money (as I know, that you know) and it has to be paid for. And when you have political parties who's modus operandi is to campaign on low taxation, supported into Government by demographics who dogmatically vote for "Governments of low taxation" then there's always going to be a reckoning at some point farther down the line. And here we are... It was always going to happen as for all my life i cannot remember a government being elected on the promise of higher taxation even though that was necessary. To promise that would be election suicide by people as well who moan about services being cut as if there is a magic money tree about. The only gripe the electorate can have is not what they pay but where and how there money gets used.
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Post by desmond on Sept 2, 2024 8:54:59 GMT
Sorry not having that someone who paid full NI to get a fiver a week more than someone on pension credit deserves to lose the fuel allowance, how does that make them rich?? I get it for those with significant private income but they have got this wrong as things stand. I've not said they're all rich. I've said it's statistically the richest demographic. My ex's parents always had very unextraordinary jobs. He a postman. She worked on the production line at Walls. They were bloody loaded when they popped their clogs. Cruise every year. Sat on property. They were the norm rather than the exception. The country and Government have really looked after that generation over the years and they've done really well. Their grandson works 40 hours per week at Boohoo, can't afford to get on the property ladder. Gets the square root of f*ck all out of this Government. Yet his taxes are expected to fund £300 payouts for extraordinarily privileged pensioners. I don't see a fairness in that. I totally accept that there are exceptions and help those who need it by all means. But we need to stop throwing money we can't afford at people who don't need it at a time when there are lots of people really struggling. If their only income was from their jobs then I don’t see how the government did anything out of the ordinary for them and they sound like they looked after their finances well. There is an argument about inheritance tax on property transference but that’s a completely different thing to taking away the fuel allowance for people just outside the threshold. Also with reference to the IHT on property I think there are as many people set to inherit the property as there are those who would be passing it down who are against the idea. And yes it’s tough for people to get on the housing ladder today but there is/was the Help to Buy scheme which all of my 3 lads took advantage of to get a mortgage/house. The last one to move out did so last year, he did have to live at home until he was 29 to save the deposit but he’s not on a huge salary but also did it as a single buyer.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Sept 2, 2024 8:58:20 GMT
I totally agree with your comment on the State Pension. But it's not free money (as I know, that you know) and it has to be paid for. And when you have political parties who's modus operandi is to campaign on low taxation, supported into Government by demographics who dogmatically vote for "Governments of low taxation" then there's always going to be a reckoning at some point farther down the line. And here we are... It was always going to happen as for all my life i cannot remember a government being elected on the promise of higher taxation even though that was necessary. To promise that would be election suicide by people as well who moan about services being cut as if there is a magic money tree about. The only gripe the electorate can have is not what they pay but where and how there money gets used. Butbutbut we need to allow all these company bosses to keep their money to themselves so they can use it to grow the economy. By building gigafactories in the Far East and offshoring what’s left of our industry.
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Post by mattyovrio on Sept 2, 2024 9:22:16 GMT
If my granddad hadn’t had a family home bought for him by his employer (remember when firms used to do things like that?) my dad would be destitute. No way he could get by on just the state pension and no private pension when he was forced into early retirement and spent a significant chunk of his adult life on incapacity. He struggles to get by as it is even with a fully paid for roof over his head. I bring him up because while he’s lucky enough to have that roof, I can imagine a lot of people with his level of income having rent to pay on top. It’s all well and good saying people should have private pensions but 1. A lot of people barely get by with the income the do get without paying into a pension 2. Some pension schemes offer actually awful returns 3. if someone gets to that age without one it’s no good saying “tough shit you’re on your own” - we should be better than that. It’s why I’ll always bang on about protecting the state pension. It should be enough for people to get by. If people have a nice big juicy private pension on top they’ll be paying income tax on that anyway. I totally agree with your comment on the State Pension. But it's not free money (as I know, that you know) and it has to be paid for. And when you have political parties who's modus operandi is to campaign on low taxation, supported into Government by demographics who dogmatically vote for "Governments of low taxation" then there's always going to be a reckoning at some point farther down the line. And here we are... Except that tax rates are at their post war highest and we still have crumbling national infrastructure and declining standards of public services. Maybe a look at what has happened in the water industry is informative. Billions filched out in dividends, fat cat salaries and bonuses for those at the top of the shop and shit dumped into our rivers and seas. It isn’t hard to join up the dots.
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Post by Count de Stockport on Sept 2, 2024 9:36:04 GMT
I totally agree with your comment on the State Pension. But it's not free money (as I know, that you know) and it has to be paid for. And when you have political parties who's modus operandi is to campaign on low taxation, supported into Government by demographics who dogmatically vote for "Governments of low taxation" then there's always going to be a reckoning at some point farther down the line. And here we are... Except that tax rates are at their post war highest and we still have crumbling national infrastructure and declining standards of public services. Maybe a look at what has happened in the water industry is informative. Billions filched out in dividends, fat cat salaries and bonuses for those at the top of the shop and shit dumped into our rivers and seas. It isn’t hard to join up the dots. and how many of those dividends go to pension funds who own shares in the water companies? Pure speculation on my part, to be honest, but one based on the precedent of pension funds basically ripping up our heavy industry in the 80s (if Adam Curtis's The Mayfair Set is accurate - I'm sure Martin will correct me here!)
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Post by timberwolf on Sept 2, 2024 9:41:50 GMT
I've not said they're all rich. I've said it's statistically the richest demographic. My ex's parents always had very unextraordinary jobs. He a postman. She worked on the production line at Walls. They were bloody loaded when they popped their clogs. Cruise every year. Sat on property. They were the norm rather than the exception. The country and Government have really looked after that generation over the years and they've done really well. Their grandson works 40 hours per week at Boohoo, can't afford to get on the property ladder. Gets the square root of f*ck all out of this Government. Yet his taxes are expected to fund £300 payouts for extraordinarily privileged pensioners. I don't see a fairness in that. I totally accept that there are exceptions and help those who need it by all means. But we need to stop throwing money we can't afford at people who don't need it at a time when there are lots of people really struggling. If their only income was from their jobs then I don’t see how the government did anything out of the ordinary for them and they sound like they looked after their finances well. There is an argument about inheritance tax on property transference but that’s a completely different thing to taking away the fuel allowance for people just outside the threshold. Also with reference to the IHT on property I think there are as many people set to inherit the property as there are those who would be passing it down who are against the idea. And yes it’s tough for people to get on the housing ladder today but there is/was the Help to Buy scheme which all of my 3 lads took advantage of to get a mortgage/house. The last one to move out did so last year, he did have to live at home until he was 29 to save the deposit but he’s not on a huge salary but also did it as a single buyer. You would have thought pensioners have all been involved in some illegal activities all their lives. A generation at best who were just lucky when they were born with lifestyles far better than most of their parents and grandparents had. Probably better than their children and especially their grandchildren are having but no fault of their own. If someone is loaded when they die who had just ordinary jobs then so what. Savings for some is the only real excitement they get in life and for a reason i cannot myself think of its been their life since the first day they went out to work. My lifestyle carried on from my parents and seems to have been passed on to my lad by earning a quid and spending 99p every week. Whilst being annoyed about losing the winter fuel allowance i certainly am not going to cry myself to sleep about it as there could be worse coming the way of everyone.
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Mozzer
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Post by Mozzer on Sept 2, 2024 9:46:44 GMT
I think 'no fault of their own' is stretching it. Clearly individuals are not responsible for everyone (both my parents and my parents in law will say this with some justification) but that generation helped support the economic approach that has brought us here and as an age demographic voted in the biggest numbers for Brexit, which has further contributed to it.
There are clearly multiple factors here, so I'm not playing the simplistic and unfair 'blame the boomers' card, equally 'no fault of their own' gives that generation a get out of jail free card it doesn't deserve, frankly.
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Post by mattyovrio on Sept 2, 2024 9:48:30 GMT
Except that tax rates are at their post war highest and we still have crumbling national infrastructure and declining standards of public services. Maybe a look at what has happened in the water industry is informative. Billions filched out in dividends, fat cat salaries and bonuses for those at the top of the shop and shit dumped into our rivers and seas. It isn’t hard to join up the dots. and how many of those dividends go to pension funds who own shares in the water companies? Pure speculation on my part, to be honest, but one based on the precedent of pension funds basically ripping up our heavy industry in the 80s (if Adam Curtis's The Mayfair Set is accurate - I'm sure Martin will correct me here!) Have a look at how much Macquaire juiced out of Thames Water. It also got a £5bn write off of debt when Thatcher privatised it.
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Post by timberwolf on Sept 2, 2024 10:29:02 GMT
I think 'no fault of their own' is stretching it. Clearly individuals are not responsible for everyone (both my parents and my parents in law will say this with some justification) but that generation helped support the economic approach that has brought us here and as an age demographic voted in the biggest numbers for Brexit, which has further contributed to it. There are clearly multiple factors here, so I'm not playing the simplistic and unfair 'blame the boomers' card, equally 'no fault of their own' gives that generation a get out of jail free card it doesn't deserve, frankly. You mean the same people who were in middle age voted the tories out to give the county its longest period of a labour government no matter what people think of. How many others as well were conned by brexit even if its true about the percentages who voted for it. Do not think there has ever been a generation disliked by others as much as the boomers are when most just went out and lived there lives to their best for themselves and their families with little thought about the legacy they have left. A generation cannot be cast aside just because more by luck than management they were born at a certain time in history. At least we were allowed to think and encouraged to do so unlike our predecessors who were more happier to doff their caps at their so called betters and followed religeon without any thought of the subject at all. As a kid it wasn,t easy for me finding a fellow atheist or a republican unlike it is today and anyone who did not follow a so called sexual norm had a life of lies which was no fault of their own.
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Mozzer
Contributor
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Post by Mozzer on Sept 2, 2024 10:39:07 GMT
I think 'no fault of their own' is stretching it. Clearly individuals are not responsible for everyone (both my parents and my parents in law will say this with some justification) but that generation helped support the economic approach that has brought us here and as an age demographic voted in the biggest numbers for Brexit, which has further contributed to it. There are clearly multiple factors here, so I'm not playing the simplistic and unfair 'blame the boomers' card, equally 'no fault of their own' gives that generation a get out of jail free card it doesn't deserve, frankly. You mean the same people who were in middle age voted the tories out to give the county its longest period of a labour government no matter what people think of. How many others as well were conned by brexit even if its true about the percentages who voted for it. Do not think there has ever been a generation disliked by others as much as the boomers are when most just went out and lived there lives to their best for themselves and their families with little thought about the legacy they have left. A generation cannot be cast aside just because more by luck than management they were born at a certain time in history. At least we were allowed to think and encouraged to do so unlike our predecessors who were more happier to doff their caps at their so called betters and followed religeon without any thought of the subject at all. As a kid it wasn,t easy for me finding a fellow atheist or a republican unlike it is today and anyone who did not follow a so called sexual norm had a life of lies which was no fault of their own. As I noted, I am not playing the 'blame the boomers' card. I am saying they are not blameless, collectively. It does no-one any good to pretend they're entirely to blame nor to pretend they've not got a part to play, alongside others. Incidentally, I think the teenager/young adult generation of most parts of the modern era are the ones who are most routinely attacked. The odd thing is that once many of those teenagers get to middle/older age they forget they were the ones under attack and take it out on the contemporary teenage generation. It depresses me. Especially when it comes from people who make little to no attempt to understand what life is like for the young adults of the day. Things like 'stop eating avocado on toast and save for a deposit' boil my piss. And I'm 50-f*cking-2...
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Post by vicar on Sept 2, 2024 11:22:54 GMT
You mean the same people who were in middle age voted the tories out to give the county its longest period of a labour government no matter what people think of. How many others as well were conned by brexit even if its true about the percentages who voted for it. Do not think there has ever been a generation disliked by others as much as the boomers are when most just went out and lived there lives to their best for themselves and their families with little thought about the legacy they have left. A generation cannot be cast aside just because more by luck than management they were born at a certain time in history. At least we were allowed to think and encouraged to do so unlike our predecessors who were more happier to doff their caps at their so called betters and followed religeon without any thought of the subject at all. As a kid it wasn,t easy for me finding a fellow atheist or a republican unlike it is today and anyone who did not follow a so called sexual norm had a life of lies which was no fault of their own. As I noted, I am not playing the 'blame the boomers' card. I am saying they are not blameless, collectively. It does no-one any good to pretend they're entirely to blame nor to pretend they've not got a part to play, alongside others. Incidentally, I think the teenager/young adult generation of most parts of the modern era are the ones who are most routinely attacked. The odd thing is that once many of those teenagers get to middle/older age they forget they were the ones under attack and take it out on the contemporary teenage generation. It depresses me. Especially when it comes from people who make little to no attempt to understand what life is like for the young adults of the day. Things like 'stop eating avocado on toast and save for a deposit' boil my piss. And I'm 50-f*cking-2... There's no-one to blame but the people running the country, okay a tory vote is a selfish vote but you'd still expect a degree of competence, there’s no way anyone could foresee a simple yes/no vote on such a complex issue put to a largely uneducated public or Johnson taking charge by promising a great deal and having no idea what he was doing. The pandemic wasn't entirely out of the blue but again we had a complete idiot in charge, his time was always going to come to an embarrassing end but who could have foreseen Truss and Kwarteng coming along and out idioting Johnson?
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