|
Post by timberwolf on Sept 6, 2024 7:13:40 GMT
I also worked in social housing and we couldn't fit cladding that didn't meet the regulations, everything had to meet building regs and if the regs are not what they should be that's not the fault of those at the top of these organisations. Plenty at the top of other organisations that knew what they were supplying and fitting was dangerous as the inquiry finds. My point was a more general one and undoubtedly true - look at the evidence in the Post Office debacle! The list goes on and on. Local health trusts the same. Baby P and the head of social care. The financial crash! The water industry. Need I go on? Do not know a single thing about the building industry but was cladding needed safe or not.
|
|
Mozzer
Contributor
Posts: 1,298
|
Post by Mozzer on Sept 6, 2024 7:56:39 GMT
Depends what it's being used for. Clearly there's an aesthetic component so arguably if that's all it's there for, perhaps not (although don't underestimate how detrimental a crap exterior on a large building can be to the feel of an area). However, two other main purposes are protection of the building itself and for thermal insulation. I can't say why it was added at Grenfell, but a lot of cladding that has been added retrospectively in recent years has been with those 3 issues in mind. There are other functions of cladding but I'm not going to pretend to understand them and I think those reasons I mentioned are the most critical.
|
|
|
Post by malc on Sept 6, 2024 8:31:21 GMT
Plenty at the top of other organisations that knew what they were supplying and fitting was dangerous as the inquiry finds. My point was a more general one and undoubtedly true - look at the evidence in the Post Office debacle! The list goes on and on. Local health trusts the same. Baby P and the head of social care. The financial crash! The water industry. Need I go on? It won't stop until they start locking them up for corporate manslaughter. The establishment always look after their own............some poor s*d gets prison time for fiddling their benefits whilst the fat cats at that top responsible for killing innocent people get off. Ever so slightly off tangent but is the reason no new prisons are being built because if there is ever a reckoning (very unlikely) those sanctioning the new prisons will be the same TWA teas that will fill them up? Heads should roll over this scandal but as ever, they won't.
|
|
|
Post by desmond on Sept 6, 2024 9:07:09 GMT
It won't stop until they start locking them up for corporate manslaughter. The establishment always look after their own............some poor s*d gets prison time for fiddling their benefits whilst the fat cats at that top responsible for killing innocent people get off. Ever so slightly off tangent but is the reason no new prisons are being built because if there is ever a reckoning (very unlikely) those sanctioning the new prisons will be the same TWA teas that will fill them up? Heads should roll over this scandal but as ever, they won't. Don’t know but from reports this morning they might find themselves in Estonia !
|
|
|
Post by edjelley on Sept 6, 2024 9:14:41 GMT
It won't stop until they start locking them up for corporate manslaughter. The establishment always look after their own............some poor s*d gets prison time for fiddling their benefits whilst the fat cats at that top responsible for killing innocent people get off. Ever so slightly off tangent but is the reason no new prisons are being built because if there is ever a reckoning (very unlikely) those sanctioning the new prisons will be the same TWA teas that will fill them up? Heads should roll over this scandal but as ever, they won't. Correct, as they should also over the Post Office/horizon scandal,including ministers being accountable .
|
|
|
Post by herbiedumplings on Sept 6, 2024 9:25:37 GMT
Ever so slightly off tangent but is the reason no new prisons are being built because if there is ever a reckoning (very unlikely) those sanctioning the new prisons will be the same TWA teas that will fill them up? Heads should roll over this scandal but as ever, they won't. Don’t know but from reports this morning they might find themselves in Estonia ! Nice there, from what I’ve heard. Forward- thinking country. First in the world to have full national broadband coverage IIRC.
|
|
|
Post by nelly on Sept 6, 2024 9:49:16 GMT
Depends what it's being used for. Clearly there's an aesthetic component so arguably if that's all it's there for, perhaps not (although don't underestimate how detrimental a crap exterior on a large building can be to the feel of an area). However, two other main purposes are protection of the building itself and for thermal insulation. I can't say why it was added at Grenfell, but a lot of cladding that has been added retrospectively in recent years has been with those 3 issues in mind. There are other functions of cladding but I'm not going to pretend to understand them and I think those reasons I mentioned are the most critical. Lancashire Hill flats were grey concrete and very soviet era looking before the cladding. You can't polish a turd though.
|
|
|
Post by herbiedumplings on Sept 6, 2024 10:10:35 GMT
Depends what it's being used for. Clearly there's an aesthetic component so arguably if that's all it's there for, perhaps not (although don't underestimate how detrimental a crap exterior on a large building can be to the feel of an area). However, two other main purposes are protection of the building itself and for thermal insulation. I can't say why it was added at Grenfell, but a lot of cladding that has been added retrospectively in recent years has been with those 3 issues in mind. There are other functions of cladding but I'm not going to pretend to understand them and I think those reasons I mentioned are the most critical. Lancashire Hill flats were grey concrete and very soviet era looking before the cladding. You can't polish a turd though. Weren’t they used in a poster with like a tropical background or something?
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Sept 6, 2024 10:50:27 GMT
Depends what it's being used for. Clearly there's an aesthetic component so arguably if that's all it's there for, perhaps not (although don't underestimate how detrimental a crap exterior on a large building can be to the feel of an area). However, two other main purposes are protection of the building itself and for thermal insulation. I can't say why it was added at Grenfell, but a lot of cladding that has been added retrospectively in recent years has been with those 3 issues in mind. There are other functions of cladding but I'm not going to pretend to understand them and I think those reasons I mentioned are the most critical. Lancashire Hill flats were grey concrete and very soviet era looking before the cladding. You can't polish a turd though. Its whats inside thats important and you only see the outside when entering the building. Like a bloke i knew who ha one of them ugly ford scorpio estates with that frog eyed looking front. you do not see the outside when sat driving in comfortable leather seats with a good heater working. Too much is made out of the outside appearances of anything thats built or made for practical purposes. If grenfell flats did not need the cladding for any other reason than looks the deaths are on the designers hands.
|
|
|
Post by HTC on Sept 6, 2024 10:59:55 GMT
Lancashire Hill flats were grey concrete and very soviet era looking before the cladding. You can't polish a turd though. Its whats inside thats important and you only see the outside when entering the building. Like a bloke i knew who ha one of them ugly ford scorpio estates with that frog eyed looking front. you do not see the outside when sat driving in comfortable leather seats with a good heater working. Too much is made out of the outside appearances of anything thats built or made for practical purposes. If grenfell flats did not need the cladding for any other reason than looks the deaths are on the designers hands.
it's not.
The way the built environment looks and works has a much greater effect on people's well being than you might expect. An example is the 'Glasgow Effect' - basically, the combination of poor weather and poor urban planning is seen as a contributing factor in why life expectancy in that city is far lower than you'd expect, even when compared with other post industrial UK cities with severe issues with poverty etc.
Article below.
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Sept 6, 2024 11:16:36 GMT
Its whats inside thats important and you only see the outside when entering the building. Like a bloke i knew who ha one of them ugly ford scorpio estates with that frog eyed looking front. you do not see the outside when sat driving in comfortable leather seats with a good heater working. Too much is made out of the outside appearances of anything thats built or made for practical purposes. If grenfell flats did not need the cladding for any other reason than looks the deaths are on the designers hands.
it's not.
The way the built environment looks and works has a much greater effect on people's well being than you might expect. An example is the 'Glasgow Effect' - basically, the combination of poor weather and poor urban planning is seen as a contributing factor in why life expectancy in that city is far lower than you'd expect, even when compared with other post industrial UK cities with severe issues with poverty etc.
Article below.
Reading it i feel its just a minor problem compared to everything else thats involved. The downside of all schemes that ridded areas of slums were the loss of community the slums actually had. Then there is the rose coloured glasses that history always brings up where sleeping 6 in a room with a shared outside toilet is deemed not to have been that bad really. The house i live in is certainly not a thing of beauty but much warmer when it matters than a chocolate box cottage will possibly be even with expensive work done to it.
|
|
|
Post by nelly on Sept 6, 2024 11:29:05 GMT
Lancashire Hill flats were grey concrete and very soviet era looking before the cladding. You can't polish a turd though. Its whats inside thats important and you only see the outside when entering the building. Like a bloke i knew who ha one of them ugly ford scorpio estates with that frog eyed looking front. you do not see the outside when sat driving in comfortable leather seats with a good heater working. Too much is made out of the outside appearances of anything thats built or made for practical purposes. If grenfell flats did not need the cladding for any other reason than looks the deaths are on the designers hands. I had a Ford Scorpio estate. Nice car, but rubbish on fuel. 2.5L Italian marine diesel engine.
|
|
|
Post by vicar on Sept 6, 2024 11:32:01 GMT
Lancashire Hill flats were grey concrete and very soviet era looking before the cladding. You can't polish a turd though. Its whats inside thats important and you only see the outside when entering the building. Like a bloke i knew who ha one of them ugly ford scorpio estates with that frog eyed looking front. you do not see the outside when sat driving in comfortable leather seats with a good heater working. Too much is made out of the outside appearances of anything thats built or made for practical purposes. If grenfell flats did not need the cladding for any other reason than looks the deaths are on the designers hands. As others have said looks are very important it gives the area a lift, I would imagine the cladding also provided insulation to keep the bills down and weather proofing to give the building a longer life.
|
|
|
Post by desmond on Sept 6, 2024 11:41:49 GMT
Don’t know but from reports this morning they might find themselves in Estonia ! Nice there, from what I’ve heard. Forward- thinking country. First in the world to have full national broadband coverage IIRC. I can vouch for Talin being a beautiful city and I’ve even been up Fat Margaret (Look it up 😀), not sure about the prisons though.
|
|
|
Post by voodooray on Sept 6, 2024 12:31:34 GMT
A good summary of the Grenfell disaster here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/04/grenfell-is-simply-explained-firms-chased-profits-ministers-sat-on-their-hands-innocents-paid-with-their-livesPeter Apps has written an excellent book on Grenfell called 'Show Me the Bodies' - shocking, saddening, very readable, which weaves together the utterly grim experiences of those who were in the fire, and the successive political and economic decisions - a lot of them under the coalition government - that led to an utterly avoidable catastrophe. Well worth a read - it's a grim insight into how our country is run. Profit over people. Ultimately, the mania for privatisation (stretching back to Thatcher & continued by successive governments, Tory and Labour), the fetish for cutting 'red tape', the unswerving and ideological faith in the 'market', led to those deaths. Regulatory fire tests were overseen by private companies! Government withdrew from its responsibilities, championing regulatory freedom. Bad test results were hidden or manipulated. Loopholes were exploited. Cheap and unsuitable cladding was sold as 'safe'. Warnings were ignored. Safety was never high on the agenda. And those people died as a result.
|
|