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Post by Stranded Hatter on Jul 24, 2024 12:53:12 GMT
I see you've taken suedehead 's post on board. I've not read it, so very difficult to take anything onboard. Probably worth reading posts in reply to you from one of the two main administrators on the forum you’re posting on.
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Post by redhatter on Jul 24, 2024 12:55:59 GMT
I accept that it might be a little bit trite to say but we went through World War Two which I guess, to date, is still the most expensive thing (and not just financially) that the UK has ever endured. Believe it cost around £25bn at the time, as well as our Empire, significant swathes of our industrial capability, not to mention the sad reality of around 400,000 of our most capable, young and fit population. We didn't go bankrupt. In fact, not only did we not go bankrupt, we created the NHS and all manner of other societal structures shortly thereafter and also contributed to the rebuild and defence of Western Europe, especially Germany. The economy did well post WW2 because the state spent money. It invested in people and infrastructure at a time when “there was no money left”. That’s the only way to kick start economies not cutting everything to the bone. See also FDR’s New Deal and the Great Depression. That's a good analysis. People tend to conflate a household budget with government spending, but it's a completely different entity. Margaret Thatcher famously talked about understanding household budgets in an effort to relate to housewives. As long as a government invests in the right skills, people and infrastructure, it will kick start economic growth, as it makes it easier to do business and productivity increases. I like a lot of Labour's thinking, about tackling planning issues to boost house building, cutting NHS waiting lists (to bring some of the 2.6m economically active people back into the work place), investing in northern rail infrastructure, increasing salaries in the care system to prevent 1 in 7 hospital beds being blocked, etc. All their plans involve some investment, but will deliver significant returns long term, whether that is in economic growth, cost savings and improved public services. There is also a joined up strategic plan; linking care, to the NHS, to getting people back to work, to cutting benefits. Get that investment wrong and it can cripple an economy, especially if debt is already very high.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Jul 24, 2024 13:06:13 GMT
The economy did well post WW2 because the state spent money. It invested in people and infrastructure at a time when “there was no money left”. That’s the only way to kick start economies not cutting everything to the bone. See also FDR’s New Deal and the Great Depression. That's a good analysis. People tend to conflate a household budget with government spending, but it's a completely different entity. Margaret Thatcher famously talked about understanding household budgets in an effort to relate to housewives. As long as a government invests in the right skills, people and infrastructure, it will kick start economic growth, as it makes it easier to do business and productivity increases. I like a lot of Labour's thinking, about tackling planning issues to boost house building, cutting NHS waiting lists (to bring some of the 2.6m economically active people back into the work place), investing in northern rail infrastructure, increasing salaries in the care system to prevent 1 in 7 hospital beds being blocked, etc. All their plans involve some investment, but will deliver significant returns long term, whether that is in economic growth, cost savings and improved public services. There is also a joined up strategic plan; linking care, to the NHS, to getting people back to work, to cutting benefits. Get that investment wrong and it can cripple an economy, especially if debt is already very high. It all sounded so good until “to cutting benefits”. This country needs to stop punishing people on benefits. They are a critical lifeline to many people and an actually robust benefit system where people are properly supported will do more towards helping them get their life in order which means that they can re enter the workforce. A lot of people who have fallen into benefits in recent years due to mental health issues have those issues exacerbated by the draconian and woefully inadequate benefits system. PiP assessments are horrendous and carried out by people wholly unsuitable to do them. I’ve had many conversations with people in the last few months about how helpless they feel from the way they were treated by the Job Centre. I’ve had my own run ins with the pen pushers at that institution while the pandemic was still keeping industries closed. Tories talked about a carrot and stick approach. I say get rid of the f*cking stick. Nobody bar a handful of insignificant outlier cases actually want to be on benefits. The welfare state needs to care for people, not chastise them for falling on hard times.
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Post by suedehead on Jul 24, 2024 13:24:10 GMT
I see you've taken suedehead 's post on board. I've not read it, so very difficult to take anything onboard. Take this on board then. You’re on thin ice and much more and you’ll be gone permanently. You’re not above the rules, nobody is. At the point you become more than a bit of a pain in the arse, you’re gone. Please respect the board and the other members, it’s not hard. We’ve said it before but it only takes one bad apple to drag the board down and it becomes a farce. Engage properly, cut out the childish ‘somebody tell Nik I’m not talking to him’ bullshit and stop with the personal digs. If you don’t heed this, you will be removed. It’s as simple as that.
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Post by redhatter on Jul 24, 2024 13:44:36 GMT
That's a good analysis. People tend to conflate a household budget with government spending, but it's a completely different entity. Margaret Thatcher famously talked about understanding household budgets in an effort to relate to housewives. As long as a government invests in the right skills, people and infrastructure, it will kick start economic growth, as it makes it easier to do business and productivity increases. I like a lot of Labour's thinking, about tackling planning issues to boost house building, cutting NHS waiting lists (to bring some of the 2.6m economically active people back into the work place), investing in northern rail infrastructure, increasing salaries in the care system to prevent 1 in 7 hospital beds being blocked, etc. All their plans involve some investment, but will deliver significant returns long term, whether that is in economic growth, cost savings and improved public services. There is also a joined up strategic plan; linking care, to the NHS, to getting people back to work, to cutting benefits. Get that investment wrong and it can cripple an economy, especially if debt is already very high. It all sounded so good until “to cutting benefits”. This country needs to stop punishing people on benefits. They are a critical lifeline to many people and an actually robust benefit system where people are properly supported will do more towards helping them get their life in order which means that they can re enter the workforce. A lot of people who have fallen into benefits in recent years due to mental health issues have those issues exacerbated by the draconian and woefully inadequate benefits system. PiP assessments are horrendous and carried out by people wholly unsuitable to do them. I’ve had many conversations with people in the last few months about how helpless they feel from the way they were treated by the Job Centre. I’ve had my own run ins with the pen pushers at that institution while the pandemic was still keeping industries closed. Tories talked about a carrot and stick approach. I say get rid of the f*cking stick. Nobody bar a handful of insignificant outlier cases actually want to be on benefits. The welfare state needs to care for people, not chastise them for falling on hard times. To clarify what I meant, there are 8 million people on the NHS waiting list. 2.6m of those are economically active. Cutting benefits may have been a clumsy term, but what I meant is that there is a massive economic cost to a waiting list of that size. It costs £150bn per year and 7% of GDP. I'm not talking about punishing people. If you can help people back to full health and they can return to work, then the state won't need to pay sickness benefits and that individual can contribute to the economy. Equally someone who is not economically active, but can be returned to health, is less likely to need additional support from the state. Not to mention removing pain, stress, etc for the individual. Invest in getting people back to full health, plus challenge the causes of ill health tobacco, processed foods, fast food, lack of exercise, etc, will significantly reduce the cost to the state massively, without penalising or harming anyone.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Jul 24, 2024 15:11:26 GMT
It all sounded so good until “to cutting benefits”. This country needs to stop punishing people on benefits. They are a critical lifeline to many people and an actually robust benefit system where people are properly supported will do more towards helping them get their life in order which means that they can re enter the workforce. A lot of people who have fallen into benefits in recent years due to mental health issues have those issues exacerbated by the draconian and woefully inadequate benefits system. PiP assessments are horrendous and carried out by people wholly unsuitable to do them. I’ve had many conversations with people in the last few months about how helpless they feel from the way they were treated by the Job Centre. I’ve had my own run ins with the pen pushers at that institution while the pandemic was still keeping industries closed. Tories talked about a carrot and stick approach. I say get rid of the f*cking stick. Nobody bar a handful of insignificant outlier cases actually want to be on benefits. The welfare state needs to care for people, not chastise them for falling on hard times. To clarify what I meant, there are 8 million people on the NHS waiting list. 2.6m of those are economically active. Cutting benefits may have been a clumsy term, but what I meant is that there is a massive economic cost to a waiting list of that size. It costs £150bn per year and 7% of GDP. I'm not talking about punishing people. If you can help people back to full health and they can return to work, then the state won't need to pay sickness benefits and that individual can contribute to the economy. Equally someone who is not economically active, but can be returned to health, is less likely to need additional support from the state. Not to mention removing pain, stress, etc for the individual. Invest in getting people back to full health, plus challenge the causes of ill health tobacco, processed foods, fast food, lack of exercise, etc, will significantly reduce the cost to the state massively, without penalising or harming anyone. Oh good. I did think it was a bit of a sharp turn from the rest of your post 😂 I do admit to being quite sensitive on the benefits thing. I have had to deal with the job centre twice in my life and both experiences were deeply unpleasant. Originally in 2010 when I left uni and the country was on its arse and again during Covid because while many people were well looked after financially there were plenty of us who were not. It was a horrible experience and didn’t cover my outgoings so I cannot see how anyone would willingly be on them. The odd few who take the piss are a small price to pay to be there for others in need. My other sensitivity (and the thing that really gets my goat) is around disability/incapacity benefits. My dad has been permanently sick and unable to work for over two decades - and losing his career ended his social life and utterly destroyed his mental health. The constant assessments to prove that he hadn’t magically got better from his incurable ailments were as insulting as they were pointless. And a decade of that was under the last Labour government! This country needs a mentality shift when it comes to welfare. It needs to come away from “how can we make these statistics more effective cogs in the economic machine” and towards “how can we help these human beings”. Do the latter and the former will follow anyway.
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Post by bigmartin on Jul 24, 2024 15:32:35 GMT
To clarify what I meant, there are 8 million people on the NHS waiting list. 2.6m of those are economically active. Cutting benefits may have been a clumsy term, but what I meant is that there is a massive economic cost to a waiting list of that size. It costs £150bn per year and 7% of GDP. I'm not talking about punishing people. If you can help people back to full health and they can return to work, then the state won't need to pay sickness benefits and that individual can contribute to the economy. Equally someone who is not economically active, but can be returned to health, is less likely to need additional support from the state. Not to mention removing pain, stress, etc for the individual. Invest in getting people back to full health, plus challenge the causes of ill health tobacco, processed foods, fast food, lack of exercise, etc, will significantly reduce the cost to the state massively, without penalising or harming anyone. This country needs a mentality shift when it comes to welfare. It needs to come away from “how can we make these statistics more effective cogs in the economic machine” and towards “how can we help these human beings”. Do the latter and the former will follow anyway. Difficult because we're a country who have totally lost our soul and our sense of fair play, sensitivity, and generosity. Some might say we never had it but I don't think we've been quite as devoid of all that as we are right now. It seems, on Social Media at least, to be a competition for how utterly deplorable people can be, provided it upsets "the woke".
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 24, 2024 15:41:10 GMT
This country needs a mentality shift when it comes to welfare. It needs to come away from “how can we make these statistics more effective cogs in the economic machine” and towards “how can we help these human beings”. Do the latter and the former will follow anyway. Difficult because we're a country who have totally lost our soul and our sense of fair play, sensitivity, and generosity. Some might say we never had it but I don't think we've been quite as devoid of all that as we are right now. It seems, on Social Media at least, to be a competition for how utterly deplorable people can be, provided it upsets "the woke". According to some of the papers the day after the election, that was Boris’s legacy. Just shows what happens when you let someone who’s never had to think of anyone else run the country…
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tvor
Frequenter
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Post by tvor on Jul 24, 2024 16:05:42 GMT
I've not read it, so very difficult to take anything onboard. Take this on board then. You’re on thin ice and much more and you’ll be gone permanently. You’re not above the rules, nobody is. At the point you become more than a bit of a pain in the arse, you’re gone. Please respect the board and the other members, it’s not hard. We’ve said it before but it only takes one bad apple to drag the board down and it becomes a farce. Engage properly, cut out the childish ‘somebody tell Nik I’m not talking to him’ bullshit and stop with the personal digs. If you don’t heed this, you will be removed. It’s as simple as that. I have posted nothing racist, nothing sexist. I've not posted any sexual images or bad language. In the meantime though I have taken plenty of abuse from other posters and not moaned about it. Respect needs to work in both directions. I've seen some really poor quality bitter posts particularly following the Trump assassination attempt that probably should have been deleted at the time. They really were in poor taste. My only crime appears to be not liking the Labour party or it's policies. As for Nik, he has been stalking me for weeks as well you and others know.
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Post by nelly on Jul 24, 2024 16:17:57 GMT
To clarify what I meant, there are 8 million people on the NHS waiting list. 2.6m of those are economically active. Cutting benefits may have been a clumsy term, but what I meant is that there is a massive economic cost to a waiting list of that size. It costs £150bn per year and 7% of GDP. I'm not talking about punishing people. If you can help people back to full health and they can return to work, then the state won't need to pay sickness benefits and that individual can contribute to the economy. Equally someone who is not economically active, but can be returned to health, is less likely to need additional support from the state. Not to mention removing pain, stress, etc for the individual. Invest in getting people back to full health, plus challenge the causes of ill health tobacco, processed foods, fast food, lack of exercise, etc, will significantly reduce the cost to the state massively, without penalising or harming anyone. Oh good. I did think it was a bit of a sharp turn from the rest of your post 😂 I do admit to being quite sensitive on the benefits thing. I have had to deal with the job centre twice in my life and both experiences were deeply unpleasant. Originally in 2010 when I left uni and the country was on its arse and again during Covid because while many people were well looked after financially there were plenty of us who were not. It was a horrible experience and didn’t cover my outgoings so I cannot see how anyone would willingly be on them. The odd few who take the piss are a small price to pay to be there for others in need. My other sensitivity (and the thing that really gets my goat) is around disability/incapacity benefits. My dad has been permanently sick and unable to work for over two decades - and losing his career ended his social life and utterly destroyed his mental health. The constant assessments to prove that he hadn’t magically got better from his incurable ailments were as insulting as they were pointless. And a decade of that was under the last Labour government! This country needs a mentality shift when it comes to welfare. It needs to come away from “how can we make these statistics more effective cogs in the economic machine” and towards “how can we help these human beings”. Do the latter and the former will follow anyway. I was chastised and Man handled by a female G4S security guard for being 13 minutes early at the job centre. You can only be no more than 10 mins early apparently. Made me feel like a 2nd class citizen and they treat everyone who is unemployed like scum.
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Post by redhatter on Jul 24, 2024 16:19:06 GMT
This country needs a mentality shift when it comes to welfare. It needs to come away from “how can we make these statistics more effective cogs in the economic machine” and towards “how can we help these human beings”. Do the latter and the former will follow anyway. Difficult because we're a country who have totally lost our soul and our sense of fair play, sensitivity, and generosity. Some might say we never had it but I don't think we've been quite as devoid of all that as we are right now. It seems, on Social Media at least, to be a competition for how utterly deplorable people can be, provided it upsets "the woke". I think if you 'fix' the NHS, bring the waiting lists down, mend the support structure that fits around the NHS, like our broken care system, mental health services, etc, this will enable people who do want to work to do so. And that's what most people of an economically active age want to do. Without doubt, there is a significant minority that look to play the system, especially post covid, it will take a different approach for some of these individuals, but for me, there is too much broken in this country at the moment, so I'm very much in favour of fixing the problems and using a carrot approach for the time being.
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Post by bigmartin on Jul 24, 2024 16:24:56 GMT
Take this on board then. You’re on thin ice and much more and you’ll be gone permanently. You’re not above the rules, nobody is. At the point you become more than a bit of a pain in the arse, you’re gone. Please respect the board and the other members, it’s not hard. We’ve said it before but it only takes one bad apple to drag the board down and it becomes a farce. Engage properly, cut out the childish ‘somebody tell Nik I’m not talking to him’ bullshit and stop with the personal digs. If you don’t heed this, you will be removed. It’s as simple as that. I have posted nothing racist, nothing sexist. I've not posted any sexual images or bad language. In the meantime though I have taken plenty of abuse from other posters and not moaned about it. Respect needs to work in both directions. I've seen some really poor quality bitter posts particularly following the Trump assassination attempt that probably should have been deleted at the time. They really were in poor taste. My only crime appears to be not liking the Labour party or it's policies. As for Nik, he has been stalking me for weeks as well you and others know. More advice. Sometimes just apologise and move on (as I did with my ill-advised Trump post which you appear to have referenced, and the apology clearly overlooked. You certainly didn't mention my apology when you were tittle tattling 'across' though did you?). An apology is all that it takes sometimes. Who's got the time or inclination to censor and delete posts? Abuse. Nah. Sorry, you're going all snowflakey again. You've dished it out and you've taken it back. Simple as that. Racist posts - "China Virus" is most definitely Sinophobic. If I used that phrase at work I'd be fired, no warnings given. It might seem cool sometimes to use one of your mate Trump's buzz words but it's racist, whether you like it or not. Finally. You cannot "stalk" someone by posting openly on Social Media. That's not how "stalking" works pal.
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Post by suedehead on Jul 24, 2024 16:31:46 GMT
Take this on board then. You’re on thin ice and much more and you’ll be gone permanently. You’re not above the rules, nobody is. At the point you become more than a bit of a pain in the arse, you’re gone. Please respect the board and the other members, it’s not hard. We’ve said it before but it only takes one bad apple to drag the board down and it becomes a farce. Engage properly, cut out the childish ‘somebody tell Nik I’m not talking to him’ bullshit and stop with the personal digs. If you don’t heed this, you will be removed. It’s as simple as that. I have posted nothing racist, nothing sexist. I've not posted any sexual images or bad language. In the meantime though I have taken plenty of abuse from other posters and not moaned about it. Respect needs to work in both directions. I've seen some really poor quality bitter posts particularly following the Trump assassination attempt that probably should have been deleted at the time. They really were in poor taste. My only crime appears to be not liking the Labour party or its policies. As for Nik, he has been stalking me for weeks as well you and others know. Show me the abuse you’ve received that goes against board rules.
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Post by suedehead on Jul 24, 2024 16:32:13 GMT
And thank you for responding.
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tvor
Frequenter
Posts: 185
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Post by tvor on Jul 24, 2024 16:38:31 GMT
I have posted nothing racist, nothing sexist. I've not posted any sexual images or bad language. In the meantime though I have taken plenty of abuse from other posters and not moaned about it. Respect needs to work in both directions. I've seen some really poor quality bitter posts particularly following the Trump assassination attempt that probably should have been deleted at the time. They really were in poor taste. My only crime appears to be not liking the Labour party or it's policies. As for Nik, he has been stalking me for weeks as well you and others know. More advice. Sometimes just apologise and move on (as I did with my ill-advised Trump post which you appear to have referenced, and the apology clearly overlooked. You certainly didn't mention my apology when you were tittle tattling 'across' though did you?). An apology is all that it takes sometimes. Who's got the time or inclination to censor and delete posts? Abuse. Nah. Sorry, you're going all snowflakey again. You've dished it out and you've taken it back. Simple as that. Racist posts - "China Virus" is most definitely Sinophobic. If I used that phrase at work I'd be fired, no warnings given. It might seem cool sometimes to use one of your mate Trump's buzz words but it's racist, whether you like it or not. Finally. You cannot "stalk" someone by posting openly on Social Media. That's not how "stalking" works pal. I disagree with your opinion(s), but you are welcome to believe that you are correct.
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