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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 10:22:18 GMT
So if an individual agrees to abide to all rules relating to competing, you’re saying there should nonetheless be certain restrictions? On what grounds? my position is very straight forward.
Sport is restricted by sex for very good reasons (see the website I linked to a few posts back).
Males (no matter how they identify) have no place in female sport.
Essentially, issues around fairness and the safety of female competitors are far more important than 'inclusivity'
The website you referenced before overlooks the fact that most boys are well on the way with puberty by age 14, though. I was certainly shaving - properly - by then, and had stopped growing (except around my waist, perhaps…) In terms of fairness, Natasha King in the article I linked to is/was probably just as good if not a better prop than I ever was. I was never violent like her when I played, though, so I don’t think you can necessarily say that’s a cis/trans thing. And if by safety, you mean in the changing room, then that’s conflating being trans with being a sex pest which are two very different things.
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Post by Nik on Jul 25, 2024 10:24:38 GMT
It is not; it's an argument that they aren't blokes so calling them such is incorrect. A person who has grown a pair of tits through taking hormones, but still has the last turkey in the shop down below isn't a Woman. They're trans-women.
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 10:25:42 GMT
my position is very straight forward.
Sport is restricted by sex for very good reasons (see the website I linked to a few posts back).
Males (no matter how they identify) have no place in female sport.
Essentially, issues around fairness and the safety of female competitors are far more important than 'inclusivity'
The website you referenced before overlooks the fact that most boys are well on the way with puberty by age 14, though. I was certainly shaving - properly - by then, and had stopped growing (except around my waist, perhaps…) In terms of fairness, Natasha King in the article I linked to is/was probably just as good if not a better prop than I ever was. I was never violent like her when I played, though, so I don’t think you can necessarily say that’s a cis/trans thing. And if by safety, you mean in the changing room, then that’s conflating being trans with being a sex pest which are two very different things.
by safety, I was thinking of sports like boxing / MMA etc. Look up Fallon Fox for examples.
The changing room issue comes under the vaguer category of 'dignity', and I'd suggest taking a look at some of the reports about Lia Thomas walking around with her erection hanging out while other athletes were changing and ask yourself why you think Lia's rights trump those of the women who'd rather not be naked around Lia.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 10:40:52 GMT
The website you referenced before overlooks the fact that most boys are well on the way with puberty by age 14, though. I was certainly shaving - properly - by then, and had stopped growing (except around my waist, perhaps…) In terms of fairness, Natasha King in the article I linked to is/was probably just as good if not a better prop than I ever was. I was never violent like her when I played, though, so I don’t think you can necessarily say that’s a cis/trans thing. And if by safety, you mean in the changing room, then that’s conflating being trans with being a sex pest which are two very different things.
by safety, I was thinking of sports like boxing / MMA etc. Look up Fallon Fox for examples.
The changing room issue comes under the vaguer category of 'dignity', and I'd suggest taking a look at some of the reports about Lia Thomas walking around with her erection hanging out while other athletes were changing and ask yourself why you think Lia's rights trump those of the women who'd rather not be naked around Lia.
Both instances of cherry-picking. Cis women get injured by other cis women in contact sports/martial arts too (as I’ve pointed out), and I say again, you’re conflating “trans” with “sex offender”. By your logic, we should ban men’s football because of individuals like Joey Barton and Barry Bennell.
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Post by nelly on Jul 25, 2024 10:43:01 GMT
A person who has grown a pair of tits through taking hormones, but still has the last turkey in the shop down below isn't a Woman. They're trans-women. Biologically they're still a Man.
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Post by vicar on Jul 25, 2024 10:46:01 GMT
The website you referenced before overlooks the fact that most boys are well on the way with puberty by age 14, though. I was certainly shaving - properly - by then, and had stopped growing (except around my waist, perhaps…) In terms of fairness, Natasha King in the article I linked to is/was probably just as good if not a better prop than I ever was. I was never violent like her when I played, though, so I don’t think you can necessarily say that’s a cis/trans thing. And if by safety, you mean in the changing room, then that’s conflating being trans with being a sex pest which are two very different things.
by safety, I was thinking of sports like boxing / MMA etc. Look up Fallon Fox for examples.
The changing room issue comes under the vaguer category of 'dignity', and I'd suggest taking a look at some of the reports about Lia Thomas walking around with her erection hanging out while other athletes were changing and ask yourself why you think Lia's rights trump those of the women who'd rather not be naked around Lia.
Just a technicality but if it's hanging out it's not what you said it was.
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 10:46:13 GMT
by safety, I was thinking of sports like boxing / MMA etc. Look up Fallon Fox for examples.
The changing room issue comes under the vaguer category of 'dignity', and I'd suggest taking a look at some of the reports about Lia Thomas walking around with her erection hanging out while other athletes were changing and ask yourself why you think Lia's rights trump those of the women who'd rather not be naked around Lia.
Both instances of cherry-picking. Cis women get injured by other cis women in contact sports/martial arts too (as I’ve pointed out), and I say again, you’re conflating “trans” with “sex offender”. By your logic, we should ban men’s football because of individuals like Joey Barton and Barry Bennell.
so am I correct that by your logic.
Man with erection walks round women's changing rooms - sex pest Trans Woman with erection walks round women's changing rooms - absolutely fine
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 10:51:05 GMT
Both instances of cherry-picking. Cis women get injured by other cis women in contact sports/martial arts too (as I’ve pointed out), and I say again, you’re conflating “trans” with “sex offender”. By your logic, we should ban men’s football because of individuals like Joey Barton and Barry Bennell.
so am I correct that by your logic.
Man with erection walks round women's changing rooms - sex pest Trans Woman with erection walks round women's changing rooms - absolutely fine
I never said that, but for the avoidance of doubt: cis man walks around changing room with an erection = sex offender; pre-op trans woman walks around changing room with an erection = sex offender. Cis/trans (and indeed whether it’s the men’s or women’s changing room) is by-the-by. [edit:] If it helps: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conflate
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 10:53:33 GMT
so am I correct that by your logic.
Man with erection walks round women's changing rooms - sex pest Trans Woman with erection walks round women's changing rooms - absolutely fine
I never said that, but for the avoidance of doubt: cis man walks around changing room with an erection = sex offender; pre-op trans woman walks around changing room with an erection = sex offender. Cis/trans is by-the-by. you're aware the term pre-op is now highly offensive to some?
Well over 95% of transwomen retain a penis, and have no intention of having any sort of surgery.
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Post by Nik on Jul 25, 2024 10:57:05 GMT
Biologically they're still a Man. There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 10:57:57 GMT
I never said that, but for the avoidance of doubt: cis man walks around changing room with an erection = sex offender; pre-op trans woman walks around changing room with an erection = sex offender. Cis/trans is by-the-by. you're aware the term pre-op is now highly offensive to some?
Well over 95% of transwomen retain a penis, and have no intention of having any sort of surgery.
Using it as a measure of “trans-ness”, sure. But as a determiner of whether someone is able have a visible erection; I would disagree.
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Post by nelly on Jul 25, 2024 11:07:42 GMT
Biologically they're still a Man. There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity. I know all this, but someone with a penis should not be in a changing room / toilet with Women.
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Post by Nik on Jul 25, 2024 11:13:18 GMT
There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity. I know all this, but someone with a penis should not be in a changing room / toilet with Women. My point was and still is that calling trans-women 'blokes' is incorrect; I've not made any point besides that.
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Post by HTC on Jul 25, 2024 11:15:33 GMT
Biologically they're still a Man. There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity. this is the whole point of the debate though.
Biological Sex and Gender Identity are in deep conflict in many areas.
Everyone has a biological sex, not everyone has a gender identity.
I don't believe in gender identity and see it as a load of (largely negative) culture bound stereotypes, but I accept that others feel a deep sense of gender.
A similar thing in that I'm agnostic, but accept that millions of people believe in Islam / Christianity etc.
The question is how you manage those conflicts of rights, and to what extent we need to rearrange society around some people's perceived gender identity, even if it directly conflicts with other established rights, particularly things women's rights / freedom of belief etc.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Jul 25, 2024 11:20:41 GMT
There's a difference between biological sex and gender identity. I know all this, but someone with a penis should not be in a changing room / toilet with Women. It’s not as though women’s toilets have urinals, so nobody would know either way unless the individual was exposing themselves in a communal area, which ties in with my point about trans ≠ sex offender. I agree that changing rooms and showers without cubicles are potentially a different matter. Based on the renovations at places like Romiley and Grand Central, I feel they’re maybe less common these days, though - possibly with inclusivity (both in terms of cis people and trans people) being one of the reasons?
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