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Trump
Jul 5, 2020 18:10:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 18:10:14 GMT
If the message is not clear, then the message is flawed... I think you'll find that no-one can properly explain what BLM stands for.
There's a cabal of poster's on here that think their opinion is right and anyone that questions it or disagree is a bigot, or uneducated.
I challenge mozzer, impy, nik, stranded, sued head, those who are pretty much always patting each other on their backs, to actually explain BLM. Is it progressive, dangerous, Marxist or seen by many as racist? Is it anti-police, antisemitic, anticapitalist, antiwhite,?
Or is it a political movement that is actually quite extreme in it's actions and if you don't support it then you are a racist knuckledragger.
In all honesty we, as football fans should not have introduced/supported the politically dubious BLM fad to our sport, especially as it is detrimental to the current Kick it Out campaign which is one I support with all my heart.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 18:34:12 GMT
If the message is not clear, then the message is flawed... I think you'll find that no-one can properly explain what BLM stands for. There's a cabal of poster's on here that think their opinion is right and anyone that questions it or disagree is a bigot, or uneducated. I challenge mozzer, impy, nik, stranded, sued head, those who are pretty much always patting each other on their backs, to actually explain BLM. Is it progressive, dangerous, Marxist or seen by many as racist? Is it anti-police, antisemitic, anticapitalist, antiwhite,? Or is it a political movement that is actually quite extreme in it's actions and if you don't support it then you are a racist knuckledragger. In all honesty we, as football fans should not have introduced/supported the politically dubious BLM fad to our sport, especially as it is detrimental to the current Kick it Out campaign which is one I support with all my heart. The message is only unclear if you choose not to educate yourself on its goals and beliefs and dismiss it to suit your own views that are unlikely to ever change. You also ignored a reply to you by Fez that highlighted a long list of names of people who have been unlawfully killed by police brutality. If you look at the BLM website you will see the first line of their “about” section explains that Travon Martin was the reason they started, through awareness. To support kick it out in football but not “support with your heart” people who have their necks compressed with a knee for nine minutes until they die is something you might want to question about yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 18:45:27 GMT
There also a whole host of things, believe it or not, that don’t have to be political, they are just common sense.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jul 5, 2020 18:48:39 GMT
Look, we can all produce facts and figures... Yeah, damn those "facts and figures". (◔_◔) You can prove *any* truths with so-called "facts and figures". Like, say, the inconvenient refutation of your ludicrous assertion. So let's address the figures with which you have tried to bolster your weird argument. I'm rapidly filling up my diversion bingo card here. Good to see "PC progressive agenda which creates a culture of victimhood" (although what's happening is people are shining a light on actual victimization - like that partial list I posted). But I sure had my pen hovering over "black on black crime" propaganda, and here we are. Quote: "The biggest killer of black people in the USA is black people, so it's no surprise that black on black crime is the biggest failure that is happening in society." Is it? Interesting. Do you know the biggest killer of white people in the USA? It's white people. 82 per cent (per FBI, and compares with your 88%). So is *that* not also "the biggest failure in society"? Why don't you all ever talk about the scourge of white-on-white crime? Why hasn't The National Review? (By the way, do you have a citation for that 1976-2005 94% cent figure? The National Review article didn't. Thanks). But white people have less fear and probability of being killed by a cop. Quote: "This represents circa 19 times more deaths than in confrontations with the police" Well, of course there are in absolute terms more civilians killed by other civilians than by police - there are fewer police. And it's the *job* of the police to "protect and serve" not randomly kill. Which, despite your denial, inarguably happens at a greater rate when police come across black people compared with white. Murder rates are undeniably out of control and are being urgently addressed but it's thoroughly disingenuous (at a generous interpretation) to use that to dismiss and ignore police violence. America's hate groups use this sort of misrepresentation of crime statistics (and dismissal of anything contrary) all the time to bolster their racist propaganda. It's a shame that you are disseminating these tropes.
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Post by Mozzer on Jul 5, 2020 19:00:45 GMT
You might have a point about BLM v Kick It Out within football. Although I think the two are trying to do different things, so I'd need to see some evidence that BLM is undermining KIO. I'm not sure that's what you've really tried to articulate thus far though. Happy to examine that whilst Fez pulls apart the argument you've tried to construct about BLM.
I'm not too concerned at the charge of having opinions I think are right, by the way.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jul 5, 2020 19:05:13 GMT
If the message is not clear, then the message is flawed... I think you'll find that no-one can properly explain what BLM stands for. The mission statement on the blacklivesmatter website is clear: blacklivesmatter.com/about/This is the original American organisation but I assume that's what you're looking for given that your references have pertained to the USA.
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Trump
Jul 5, 2020 19:09:37 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 19:09:37 GMT
what happens in this country is far removed from what happens in america. the latter for me could be discribed as one of the most racial intolerant countries in the world. on the whole, while things could be better, this country is miles behind them. look at every single country in the world i would imagine this or that group or race are discriminated against for some reasons and it is not just black folk. You say that and yet this happens to two elite athletes because they're black. Weapons search for no reason with a 3 month old child in the car and they were also accused off-video of their car reeking of weed yet the Police refused to do a drugs test on them when challenged on it. Systematic racism is alive and well in the UK; no point denying it. If this was Tommy Robinson being pulled over and manhandled by the police would people be so eager to defend him? Absolutely not. There would be posts calling him every name under the sun and saying he deserved everything coming to him. Yet every video I've seen that involves a person of colour and the police is somehow proof of systematic racism. But we only have the video clip and someones word for what went on. Not saying the police weren't out of order but without knowing the full facts we are in no position to make a full judgement.
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jul 5, 2020 19:25:34 GMT
There's a cabal of poster's on here that think their opinion is right and anyone that questions it or disagree is a bigot, or uneducated. [...] Or is it a political movement that is actually quite extreme in it's actions and if you don't support it then you are a racist knuckledragger. Nobody's called you an uneducated racist knuckledragger. I do hope you're not trying to create "a culture of victimhood".
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Post by Nik on Jul 5, 2020 19:33:12 GMT
If the message is not clear, then the message is flawed... I think you'll find that no-one can properly explain what BLM stands for. There's a cabal of poster's on here that think their opinion is right and anyone that questions it or disagree is a bigot, or uneducated. I challenge mozzer, impy, nik, stranded, sued head, those who are pretty much always patting each other on their backs, to actually explain BLM. Is it progressive, dangerous, Marxist or seen by many as racist? Is it anti-police, antisemitic, anticapitalist, antiwhite,? Or is it a political movement that is actually quite extreme in it's actions and if you don't support it then you are a racist knuckledragger. In all honesty we, as football fans should not have introduced/supported the politically dubious BLM fad to our sport, especially as it is detrimental to the current Kick it Out campaign which is one I support with all my heart. The BLM UK movement is not directly associated with the Twitter accounts that talked of Israel and Palestine. Here is their website where they categorically distance themselves from such accounts: www.blacklivesmatter.uk
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Post by Nik on Jul 5, 2020 19:37:51 GMT
You say that and yet this happens to two elite athletes because they're black. Weapons search for no reason with a 3 month old child in the car and they were also accused off-video of their car reeking of weed yet the Police refused to do a drugs test on them when challenged on it. Systematic racism is alive and well in the UK; no point denying it. If this was Tommy Robinson being pulled over and manhandled by the police would people be so eager to defend him? Absolutely not. There would be posts calling him every name under the sun and saying he deserved everything coming to him. Yet every video I've seen that involves a person of colour and the police is somehow proof of systematic racism. But we only have the video clip and someones word for what went on. Not saying the police weren't out of order but without knowing the full facts we are in no position to make a full judgement. Whataboutery. It isn't convicted criminal Stephen Yaxley-Lennon though, is it? It's two athletes with their child in the car being pulled for a weapons search for no reason. Just like this ambulance driver, detained for a search for just hanging out where he lives: And this black couple who were stopped for driving a car on a road: There are countless examples of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 20:08:08 GMT
It's not whataboutery or whatever the f... heck that is supposed to be. I used TR's name as an extreme example. I'm fairly sure plenty of white people get stopped by the police for the way they dress / look. My lad dresses like a chav and has been stopped for questioning many a time. I've been flagged down and stopped by the police in my car more than once for no other reason than it was late at night. Hell, even one time I had my wife and my then one year old son in the car with me. The police explained that they stopped me as it was late (2 in the morning) and I had a lot of stuff in my car ( I was coming back from a week away). Although annoying I understood why I was pulled. No problem.
If someone has proof the police referenced their colour or had targeted them because of their colour even though they knew them to be innocent then I would believe the police were systematically racist. I'm not going to make a judgement based on a couple of videos and what others tell me I should think.
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Post by Nik on Jul 5, 2020 20:27:16 GMT
It's not whataboutery or whatever the f... heck that is supposed to be. I used TR's name as an extreme example. I'm fairly sure plenty of white people get stopped by the police for the way they dress / look. My lad dresses like a chav and has been stopped for questioning many a time. I've been flagged down and stopped by the police in my car more than once for no other reason than it was late at night. Hell, even one time I had my wife and my then one year old son in the car with me. The police explained that they stopped me as it was late (2 in the morning) and I had a lot of stuff in my car ( I was coming back from a week away). Although annoying I understood why I was pulled. No problem. If someone has proof the police referenced their colour or had targeted them because of their colour even though they knew them to be innocent then I would believe the police were systematically racist. I'm not going to make a judgement based on a couple of videos and what others tell me I should think. Your examples explain nothing. Why were a middle-aged black couple stopped for driving a car on a road? The police literally gave that as the reason. And the ambulance driver, what reason did they have to think he was carrying drugs? Plenty of other stories to back it up and plenty of facts about black people being disproportionately arrested/searched and even killed by police, but your conclusion is in spite of all of these facts and evidence, you're just going to believe what you believe. Willful ignorance.
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Trump
Jul 5, 2020 20:34:16 GMT
Post by HTC on Jul 5, 2020 20:34:16 GMT
It works both ways.
Stop and Search does seem a pretty effective way to tackle knife crime in this country - I read about a pilot scheme tried in a (very white) housing estate in Glasgow where targeted searches had made a massive difference, and was hugely successful (alongside youth centres and all the other boring stuff that requires relatively little cash investment, but a whole load of investment in people/ political will / people actually giving a shit and wanting to sort things out)
On the other hand, the policy in London in recent years of limiting stop and search to maintain good community relations does seem to have led to an increase in the number of young black kids getting stabbed as a side effect from the advantages those better community relationships bring in other areas of policing. As we all know, London receives far more funding for just about everything than anywhere else in the country, so I’m not convinced it’s purely an austerity / lack of funding issue either.
Absolutely no idea of the solution to all this, beyond a trite ‘it’s complicated’ though
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Fez
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Post by Fez on Jul 5, 2020 20:37:10 GMT
If someone has proof the police referenced their colour or had targeted them because of their colour... Here's a start. A patrol vehicle's video was accidentally started and caught these conversations: www.nytimes.com/2020/06/25/us/wilmington-police-officers-fired.html"Three police officers in Wilmington, N.C., were fired after a supervisor found recorded conversations that included racist remarks, slurs and one officer saying he “can’t wait” to start “slaughtering” black people..." Here's one from the UK in 2012: www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/mar/30/police-racism-black-man-abuseAnd this is an article from the horse's mouth(s) about systemic racism within and outwith the police force: www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/381ddbb1-e493-4875-86da-4fa4368ef839"One of my first experiences was when I overheard a senior ranking white officer tell new recruits that if they see a well-dressed black man - it's 'game on'. "Stop and search is a massive problem. I see officers stopping black people more than anyone else, despite the black population in the area being very low in numbers."
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Trump
Jul 5, 2020 21:02:54 GMT
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Post by CB1883 on Jul 5, 2020 21:02:54 GMT
what happens in this country is far removed from what happens in america. the latter for me could be discribed as one of the most racial intolerant countries in the world. on the whole, while things could be better, this country is miles behind them. look at every single country in the world i would imagine this or that group or race are discriminated against for some reasons and it is not just black folk. You say that and yet this happens to two elite athletes because they're black. Weapons search for no reason with a 3 month old child in the car and they were also accused off-video of their car reeking of weed yet the Police refused to do a drugs test on them when challenged on it. Systematic racism is alive and well in the UK; no point denying it. In London I don’t think it’s a bad thing that people are being stopped and searched. When you look at the figures for knife crime it’s as grim as anywhere in the world. When you look at the articles relating to these incidents a lot of them do seem to be within the black community. I don’t think it can be then classed as police racism if members of the same black community are being stopped and searched at an increased rate in comparison to other parts of the UK. If it helps take one knife off the street and help save a life then it’s a good thing. A young driver of a high end car is more likely to be stopped than a middle aged man in the same car or a young driver of a 1995 Nissan Micra. Yes, a lot of the time there will be a perfectly reasonable explanation on how they can afford it but you can guarantee that on occasions they discover items that can pinpoint that car to illegal activity.
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