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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 22:32:59 GMT
Genuine question. Who are "Crewe". Like, when you say "if Crewe had..." who do you mean? And what would County have done any differently at all if the same situation had arisen. Do you genuinely, for real, think that an amorphous mass of around 15,000 hardcore fans, 50,000 floating fans, and 100,000 casually interested people (random numbers plucked from thin air) would have reacted in a different way. If you do, then I have a sizeable bridge to sell you... There are indisputably c*nts on an individual level in the Crewe organisation and fan base. But, god's sake, be realistic. I once got a f*cking phone call to my personal mobile phone threatening me, and my family, for the crime of asking questions on Yellowboard about the motives of certain people within the club.. All clubs have c*nts within their midst mate. Every single one. I’m talking about what came out from the club itself. The statements put out. The denial and avoidance then eventual non apology apology (when they could deny no more) came from the people who own and run that football club. That’s the club. And so the club can get f*cked as can every fan who stood by it. Plenty of people hate Wrexham because of their owners. Their owners didn’t do anything like what happened, and then was denied, at Crewe. That's not Crewe though, anymore than it's County when someone f*cks up in a big way. Also purely as a matter of reality, child abuse has always happened throughout past history to absolutely astonishing levels in the frame of adult people seeking opportunity to exercise their impulses. I hope I'm wrong but I suspect you can go back through the history of every single football club and find a deviant or two somewhere along the line. It's simply that Bennell got caught and Crewe exposed... Another observation. What difference, in the name of God, does it make if a club, 20 years after an event, said "it was wrong and we apologise" anyhow. It's totally irrelevant.
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Post by atmosphere on Mar 16, 2024 22:36:06 GMT
Would much rather Wrexham up over Crewe. Who cares about the news? Crewe Alexandra are a horrendous set of knobs from top to bottom. Not even a debate for me.
Although, I am far too pre occupied with us. We're far from there, I know it's psychological but seeing MK in 4th on equal points with us tonight makes me feel as far away as I have for a while. 3 games in hand, yes. Games in hand only give people sleepless nights unfortunatley.
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Post by nelly on Mar 16, 2024 22:41:41 GMT
Would rather have a Barrow resurgence and them sneak into 3rd spot. Just don't fancy Wrexham getting back to back promotion, partly because it was almost assumed by some of their fans at the start of the season, plus we'd never hear the end of it. Insufferable in my opinion. I'd literally rather Crewe went up as Champions (and us 3rd) if it meant Wrexham blobbing it. Eurgh. Imagine the f*cking news 1st Stock 2nd port 3rd County Don't want any of the others to go up. Something to dislike about all of them.
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3rd Place
Mar 16, 2024 22:43:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by Stranded Hatter on Mar 16, 2024 22:43:49 GMT
I’m talking about what came out from the club itself. The statements put out. The denial and avoidance then eventual non apology apology (when they could deny no more) came from the people who own and run that football club. That’s the club. And so the club can get f*cked as can every fan who stood by it. Plenty of people hate Wrexham because of their owners. Their owners didn’t do anything like what happened, and then was denied, at Crewe. That's not Crewe though, anymore than it's County when someone f*cks up in a big way. Also purely as a matter of reality, child abuse has always happened throughout past history to absolutely astonishing levels in the frame of adult people seeking opportunity to exercise their impulses. I hope I'm wrong but I suspect you can go back through the history of every single football club and find a deviant or two somewhere along the line. It's simply that Bennell got caught and Crewe exposed... Another observation. What difference, in the name of God, does it make if a club, 20 years after an event, said "it was wrong and we apologise" anyhow. It's totally irrelevant. It makes a difference to me, if the ownership of a club admits there was wrongdoing, and stands by the victims. Doesn’t hide from it, pretend it didn’t happen, refuse point blank to admit wrong doing, and then when it can’t hide any more put out a weasel non apology apology. And it makes a difference to the victims and the families of the victims as well. If something had come out about us, and the statements put out, the defence of the perpetrators and denial of responsibility had come out of County, I’m fairly certain that I couldn’t have stood by County. You clearly disagree. And that’s your prerogative. But don’t make out like people not liking Crewe as a result of it are being unreasonable. As for every club probably had a deviant I know you’re cynical but blimey. Even ignoring that Bennell was more than just a deviant. Bennell was at City and Chelsea too. Those clubs both admitted culpability and apologised to victims and families of victims despite multiple changes of ownership by the time everything came out. They didn’t make excuses, they didn’t try and pretend that it didn’t matter because it was under old owners. They just expressed sorrow and regret for what had come before in their organisation and admitted historical negligence. I don’t want to get into any more of this tbh. I’ve said my piece, you’ve disagreed. The whole thing makes me sick.
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3rd Place
Mar 16, 2024 22:49:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by Stranded Hatter on Mar 16, 2024 22:49:57 GMT
That's not Crewe though, anymore than it's County when someone f*cks up in a big way. Also purely as a matter of reality, child abuse has always happened throughout past history to absolutely astonishing levels in the frame of adult people seeking opportunity to exercise their impulses. I hope I'm wrong but I suspect you can go back through the history of every single football club and find a deviant or two somewhere along the line. It's simply that Bennell got caught and Crewe exposed... Another observation. What difference, in the name of God, does it make if a club, 20 years after an event, said "it was wrong and we apologise" anyhow. It's totally irrelevant. It makes a difference to me, if the ownership of a club admits there was wrongdoing, and stands by the victims. Doesn’t hide from it, pretend it didn’t happen, refuse point blank to admit wrong doing, and then when it can’t hide any more put out a weasel non apology apology. And it makes a difference to the victims and the families of the victims as well. If something had come out about us, and the statements put out, the defence of the perpetrators and denial of responsibility had come out of County, I’m fairly certain that I couldn’t have stood by County. You clearly disagree. And that’s your prerogative. But don’t make out like people not liking Crewe as a result of it are being unreasonable. As for every club probably had a deviant I know you’re cynical but blimey. Even ignoring that Bennell was more than just a deviant. Bennell was at City and Chelsea too. Those clubs both admitted culpability and apologised to victims and families of victims despite multiple changes of ownership by the time everything came out. They didn’t make excuses, they didn’t try and pretend that it didn’t matter because it was under old owners. They just expressed sorrow and regret for what had come before in their organisation and admitted historical negligence. I don’t want to get into any more of this tbh. I’ve said my piece, you’ve disagreed. The whole thing makes me sick. Sorry. I do want to mention one other part of it. Not only did they refuse to apologise to the victims and victims families but they desperately fought in court to not pay any compensation whatsoever. Until it became clear they were going to lose and eventually settled. It’s things like that. Very real harm.
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3rd Place
Mar 16, 2024 22:50:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by hedleyverity on Mar 16, 2024 22:50:30 GMT
That's not Crewe though, anymore than it's County when someone f*cks up in a big way. Also purely as a matter of reality, child abuse has always happened throughout past history to absolutely astonishing levels in the frame of adult people seeking opportunity to exercise their impulses. I hope I'm wrong but I suspect you can go back through the history of every single football club and find a deviant or two somewhere along the line. It's simply that Bennell got caught and Crewe exposed... Another observation. What difference, in the name of God, does it make if a club, 20 years after an event, said "it was wrong and we apologise" anyhow. It's totally irrelevant. It makes a difference to me, if the ownership of a club admits there was wrongdoing, and stands by the victims. Doesn’t hide from it, pretend it didn’t happen, refuse point blank to admit wrong doing, and then when it can’t hide any more put out a weasel non apology apology. And it makes a difference to the victims and the families of the victims as well. If something had come out about us, and the statements put out, the defence of the perpetrators and denial of responsibility had come out of County, I’m fairly certain that I couldn’t have stood by County. You clearly disagree. And that’s your prerogative. But don’t make out like people not liking Crewe as a result of it are being unreasonable. As for every club probably had a deviant I know you’re cynical but blimey. Even ignoring that Bennell was more than just a deviant. Bennell was at City and Chelsea too. Those clubs both admitted culpability and apologised to victims and families of victims despite multiple changes of ownership by the time everything came out. They didn’t make excuses, they didn’t try and pretend that it didn’t matter because it was under old owners. They just expressed sorrow and regret for what had come before in their organisation and admitted historical negligence. I don’t want to get into any more of this tbh. I’ve said my piece, you’ve disagreed. The whole thing makes me sick. Same ownership as had been there when the abuse was going on wasn’t it?
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 23:07:48 GMT
That's not Crewe though, anymore than it's County when someone f*cks up in a big way. Also purely as a matter of reality, child abuse has always happened throughout past history to absolutely astonishing levels in the frame of adult people seeking opportunity to exercise their impulses. I hope I'm wrong but I suspect you can go back through the history of every single football club and find a deviant or two somewhere along the line. It's simply that Bennell got caught and Crewe exposed... Another observation. What difference, in the name of God, does it make if a club, 20 years after an event, said "it was wrong and we apologise" anyhow. It's totally irrelevant. It makes a difference to me, if the ownership of a club admits there was wrongdoing, and stands by the victims. Doesn’t hide from it, pretend it didn’t happen, refuse point blank to admit wrong doing, and then when it can’t hide any more put out a weasel non apology apology. And it makes a difference to the victims and the families of the victims as well. If something had come out about us, and the statements put out, the defence of the perpetrators and denial of responsibility had come out of County, I’m fairly certain that I couldn’t have stood by County. You clearly disagree. And that’s your prerogative. But don’t make out like people not liking Crewe as a result of it are being unreasonable. As for every club probably had a deviant I know you’re cynical but blimey. Even ignoring that Bennell was more than just a deviant. Bennell was at City and Chelsea too. Those clubs both admitted culpability and apologised to victims and families of victims despite multiple changes of ownership by the time everything came out. They didn’t make excuses, they didn’t try and pretend that it didn’t matter because it was under old owners. They just expressed sorrow and regret for what had come before in their organisation and admitted historical negligence. I don’t want to get into any more of this tbh. I’ve said my piece, you’ve disagreed. The whole thing makes me sick. I think you're slightly mis-representing Crewe to an extent for the purpose of your argument. But I don't fancy an all nighter so I'll grant you the point. You're slightly mis-representing my comments but it's allowed, I do the same sometimes. Does it make you sick? Seriously? I get it that the protagonists and apologists anger you. But I doubt you'll even give it all a second thought tomorrow and pretty much any day thereafter. "It makes me sick" is just something people say to support their arguments. Cynical or realistic? This business of noncing is as old as mankind and it's endemic in society (do you know any serving policemen? I do? It's more common than you probably can imagine). Like... we've got members of the Royal Family literally f*cking under-age girls and society gives them a pass and loves the Queen despite her paying the bill (with our money). I doubt that there are many clubs who don't have some dirt in the past. If you think that's cynical or unrealistic then so be it. Anyhow. Peace. We can all have different opinions. Best wishes to you.
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 23:09:43 GMT
It makes a difference to me, if the ownership of a club admits there was wrongdoing, and stands by the victims. Doesn’t hide from it, pretend it didn’t happen, refuse point blank to admit wrong doing, and then when it can’t hide any more put out a weasel non apology apology. And it makes a difference to the victims and the families of the victims as well. If something had come out about us, and the statements put out, the defence of the perpetrators and denial of responsibility had come out of County, I’m fairly certain that I couldn’t have stood by County. You clearly disagree. And that’s your prerogative. But don’t make out like people not liking Crewe as a result of it are being unreasonable. As for every club probably had a deviant I know you’re cynical but blimey. Even ignoring that Bennell was more than just a deviant. Bennell was at City and Chelsea too. Those clubs both admitted culpability and apologised to victims and families of victims despite multiple changes of ownership by the time everything came out. They didn’t make excuses, they didn’t try and pretend that it didn’t matter because it was under old owners. They just expressed sorrow and regret for what had come before in their organisation and admitted historical negligence. I don’t want to get into any more of this tbh. I’ve said my piece, you’ve disagreed. The whole thing makes me sick. Same ownership as had been there when the abuse was going on wasn’t it? Is it? Or just the odd Director? Gradi though. Never hear of him anymore do you?
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 16, 2024 23:11:20 GMT
It makes a difference to me, if the ownership of a club admits there was wrongdoing, and stands by the victims. Doesn’t hide from it, pretend it didn’t happen, refuse point blank to admit wrong doing, and then when it can’t hide any more put out a weasel non apology apology. And it makes a difference to the victims and the families of the victims as well. If something had come out about us, and the statements put out, the defence of the perpetrators and denial of responsibility had come out of County, I’m fairly certain that I couldn’t have stood by County. You clearly disagree. And that’s your prerogative. But don’t make out like people not liking Crewe as a result of it are being unreasonable. As for every club probably had a deviant I know you’re cynical but blimey. Even ignoring that Bennell was more than just a deviant. Bennell was at City and Chelsea too. Those clubs both admitted culpability and apologised to victims and families of victims despite multiple changes of ownership by the time everything came out. They didn’t make excuses, they didn’t try and pretend that it didn’t matter because it was under old owners. They just expressed sorrow and regret for what had come before in their organisation and admitted historical negligence. I don’t want to get into any more of this tbh. I’ve said my piece, you’ve disagreed. The whole thing makes me sick. Sorry. I do want to mention one other part of it. Not only did they refuse to apologise to the victims and victims families but they desperately fought in court to not pay any compensation whatsoever. Until it became clear they were going to lose and eventually settled. It’s things like that. Very real harm. They literally did...they apologised (quick reference online) on 18th March 2021 to all survivor's of Bennell's abuse.
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Post by Stranded Hatter on Mar 16, 2024 23:20:13 GMT
Sorry. I do want to mention one other part of it. Not only did they refuse to apologise to the victims and victims families but they desperately fought in court to not pay any compensation whatsoever. Until it became clear they were going to lose and eventually settled. It’s things like that. Very real harm. They literally did...they apologised (quick reference online) on 18th March 2021 to all survivor's of Bennell's abuse. Yes. After fighting tooth and nail not to for years and only after they were essentially forced to by a court ruling. No other club fought it like Crewe did. No other club made victims and victims families fight for years. And the apology was frankly, shit. Any apology that leans so heavily on ifs buts and maybes isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. I’ll leave it here for the last thing I say on it:
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Post by hedleyverity on Mar 16, 2024 23:38:45 GMT
Sorry. I do want to mention one other part of it. Not only did they refuse to apologise to the victims and victims families but they desperately fought in court to not pay any compensation whatsoever. Until it became clear they were going to lose and eventually settled. It’s things like that. Very real harm. They literally did...they apologised (quick reference online) on 18th March 2021 to all survivor's of Bennell's abuse. 2021, exactly, Bennell was first convicted in the 90’s
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Post by canterbury on Mar 17, 2024 0:43:00 GMT
It'll be Barrow.
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 17, 2024 0:46:29 GMT
They literally did...they apologised (quick reference online) on 18th March 2021 to all survivor's of Bennell's abuse. 2021, exactly, Bennell was first convicted in the 90’s It's a fair point but it is very much the nature of institutions. It's a legal matter. When do you fathom that the Royal Family, for example, will apologise for what Prince Andrew got up to (clue: they never will). When did Aunty apologise for Saville, Glitter, and all the rest of them? I sound like an apologist for Barry Bennell and Crewe here. That's not my intention. I just cannot bring myself to believe in 'Sippenhaft'. I guess I'm sticking up here for the normal, grass roots, Crewe Alex supporter (of whom I am friends with a couple for the sake of context).
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Post by Mozzer on Mar 17, 2024 4:20:37 GMT
Some of us disliked the over-hyped bunch well before all that came out anyway. Crewe away was a big game when I first started going away in the 80s. That's never left me. For that reason alone I hope they don't go up.
Though FWIW, I'd also like to hope we'd be a little more critical of our club than their fanbase were of theirs in those circumstances. Very few were. Indeed, at a time when this was going big in the media, there was an article by a Crewe fan (that I can't currently find) bemoaning not just the behaviour of the club but the reaction of the majority of the fanbase. They could have reacted differently. They didn't. There is only so much you can do as a fan, that much is true. But at least make your voice heard, even if the club won't listen. At the recent game they were singing 'Dario Gradi's a football genius'. The sticklers will say he's never been convicted of anything. Fine. No-one seriously believes he was unaware, at best, though, do they? If you making your voice heard on this matter is you singing that song in 2024, that's what you can expect to be judged on.
If we accept that, sadly, Mansfield are very probably going up and we're obviously going to say we hope to be Top 3 as well (even if we're also, correctly, not assuming that will happen) then for familial reasons, it's Wrexham for me. In any event: not Crewe and not the Franchise.
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3rd Place
Mar 17, 2024 7:59:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Count de Stockport on Mar 17, 2024 7:59:15 GMT
If it’s still the same club that won the paint pot trophy in 2012; the L1 playoffs in 1997, the L2 playoffs in 2012; and the Welsh Cup (!) in 1936 and 1937; then it’s the same club that allowed Bennell to do what he did
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