|
Post by bigmartin on Mar 17, 2024 8:29:05 GMT
Some of us disliked the over-hyped bunch well before all that came out anyway. Crewe away was a big game when I first started going away in the 80s. That's never left me. For that reason alone I hope they don't go up. Though FWIW, I'd also like to hope we'd be a little more critical of our club than their fanbase were of theirs in those circumstances. Very few were. Indeed, at a time when this was going big in the media, there was an article by a Crewe fan (that I can't currently find) bemoaning not just the behaviour of the club but the reaction of the majority of the fanbase. They could have reacted differently. They didn't. There is only so much you can do as a fan, that much is true. But at least make your voice heard, even if the club won't listen. At the recent game they were singing 'Dario Gradi's a football genius'. The sticklers will say he's never been convicted of anything. Fine. No-one seriously believes he was unaware, at best, though, do they? If you making your voice heard on this matter is you singing that song in 2024, that's what you can expect to be judged on. If we accept that, sadly, Mansfield are very probably going up and we're obviously going to say we hope to be Top 3 as well (even if we're also, correctly, not assuming that will happen) then for familial reasons, it's Wrexham for me. In any event: not Crewe and not the Franchise. This is really my point Mozzer. Of course we'd all "like to think that...". But you're an objectively sensible guy I think, and I suspect you probably know that we'd do more or less precisely the same thing...batten down the hatches, obfuscate, and basically muddle through the controversy to the best of our abilities". It's just human nature. Football fans, by our natures, are more often than not extremely hypocritical people (when it comes to football matters). I do accept the point made (though I'd want to check the full facts if it really mattered) that Crewe were very slow to "condemn" than other teams who were accused.
|
|
|
Post by redhatter on Mar 17, 2024 9:44:51 GMT
Some of us disliked the over-hyped bunch well before all that came out anyway. Crewe away was a big game when I first started going away in the 80s. That's never left me. For that reason alone I hope they don't go up. Though FWIW, I'd also like to hope we'd be a little more critical of our club than their fanbase were of theirs in those circumstances. Very few were. Indeed, at a time when this was going big in the media, there was an article by a Crewe fan (that I can't currently find) bemoaning not just the behaviour of the club but the reaction of the majority of the fanbase. They could have reacted differently. They didn't. There is only so much you can do as a fan, that much is true. But at least make your voice heard, even if the club won't listen. At the recent game they were singing 'Dario Gradi's a football genius'. The sticklers will say he's never been convicted of anything. Fine. No-one seriously believes he was unaware, at best, though, do they? If you making your voice heard on this matter is you singing that song in 2024, that's what you can expect to be judged on. If we accept that, sadly, Mansfield are very probably going up and we're obviously going to say we hope to be Top 3 as well (even if we're also, correctly, not assuming that will happen) then for familial reasons, it's Wrexham for me. In any event: not Crewe and not the Franchise. This is the article from one of the writer's for Super Dario Land. The only Crewe fan that I've ever seen have a shred of decency to call out that dirty vile nonce Club. www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/27/crewe-fan-ashamed-divorced-club-barry-bennell
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Mar 17, 2024 9:58:45 GMT
Sorry. I do want to mention one other part of it. Not only did they refuse to apologise to the victims and victims families but they desperately fought in court to not pay any compensation whatsoever. Until it became clear they were going to lose and eventually settled. It’s things like that. Very real harm. They literally did...they apologised (quick reference online) on 18th March 2021 to all survivor's of Bennell's abuse. Its just a percentage of their fans though that are deniers and refuse to hear a word said about gradi. About time we get over that affair as many other fans did of other clubs did even after it all came out. For me its a real hobsons choice as i never liked crewe since i started watching football but mk and wrexham especially are even lower in my eyes. Prefer all three to go into some meltdown on the pitch with any other PO candidates pipping em to 3rd place and another beating them in the PO.
|
|
|
Post by redhatter on Mar 17, 2024 10:00:07 GMT
Sorry. I do want to mention one other part of it. Not only did they refuse to apologise to the victims and victims families but they desperately fought in court to not pay any compensation whatsoever. Until it became clear they were going to lose and eventually settled. It’s things like that. Very real harm. They literally did...they apologised (quick reference online) on 18th March 2021 to all survivor's of Bennell's abuse. Crewe did nothing of the sort though. They dragged out the legal defence for years, making the situation much, much worse for the victims. Even their 'apology' was full of caveats and what if's. Why were Bennell and Gradi at a lower league club like Crewe, given their ability to develop talent? They should have been involved with some of the biggest Clubs in the country, but they were at a Club in the basement division who gave no regard for safeguarding and turned a blind eye. Crewe knew about Bennell for years, they just chose to ignore the issue. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_football_sexual_abuse_scandal
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Mar 17, 2024 10:04:21 GMT
Some of us disliked the over-hyped bunch well before all that came out anyway. Crewe away was a big game when I first started going away in the 80s. That's never left me. For that reason alone I hope they don't go up. Though FWIW, I'd also like to hope we'd be a little more critical of our club than their fanbase were of theirs in those circumstances. Very few were. Indeed, at a time when this was going big in the media, there was an article by a Crewe fan (that I can't currently find) bemoaning not just the behaviour of the club but the reaction of the majority of the fanbase. They could have reacted differently. They didn't. There is only so much you can do as a fan, that much is true. But at least make your voice heard, even if the club won't listen. At the recent game they were singing 'Dario Gradi's a football genius'. The sticklers will say he's never been convicted of anything. Fine. No-one seriously believes he was unaware, at best, though, do they? If you making your voice heard on this matter is you singing that song in 2024, that's what you can expect to be judged on. If we accept that, sadly, Mansfield are very probably going up and we're obviously going to say we hope to be Top 3 as well (even if we're also, correctly, not assuming that will happen) then for familial reasons, it's Wrexham for me. In any event: not Crewe and not the Franchise. This is the article from one of the writer's for Super Dario Land. The only Crewe fan that I've ever seen have a shred of decency to call out that dirty vile nonce Club. www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/27/crewe-fan-ashamed-divorced-club-barry-bennellThink there would have been a few sleepless nights and soul searching if it had been County involved in this when JG managed us. I,d have carried on supporting us as all clubs are bigger than a couple of individuals, one guilty and one lucky who were not always involved at the club and not anymore.
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Mar 17, 2024 10:09:50 GMT
Why were Bennell and Gradi at a lower league club like Crewe, given their ability to develop talent? They should have been involved with some of the biggest Clubs in the country, but they were at a Club in the basement division who gave no regard for safeguarding and turned a blind eye. Crewe knew about Bennell for years, they just chose to ignore the issue. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_football_sexual_abuse_scandal knowing and having suspicions though are two different things. Met both in person and gradi more than once and always found em to be a little odd as some of their players also did also. One good thing about the changes in society i really doubt that would happen now or in the future.
|
|
|
Post by atmosphere on Mar 17, 2024 10:19:05 GMT
Martin's one of my favourite posters on here but he's had a couple of bizarre takes recently.
Writing off Knoyle's career without any real knowledge of the medical prognosis (only for days later the medical professionals to sign him off to play football in a matter of days) and now defending* Crewe Alexandra's role (both during and after) in systematic child grooming.
*- I say defending, to give him the benefit of the doubt, reading his posts I think it's more that he knows very little about it.
|
|
|
Post by Mozzer on Mar 17, 2024 10:23:48 GMT
Some of us disliked the over-hyped bunch well before all that came out anyway. Crewe away was a big game when I first started going away in the 80s. That's never left me. For that reason alone I hope they don't go up. Though FWIW, I'd also like to hope we'd be a little more critical of our club than their fanbase were of theirs in those circumstances. Very few were. Indeed, at a time when this was going big in the media, there was an article by a Crewe fan (that I can't currently find) bemoaning not just the behaviour of the club but the reaction of the majority of the fanbase. They could have reacted differently. They didn't. There is only so much you can do as a fan, that much is true. But at least make your voice heard, even if the club won't listen. At the recent game they were singing 'Dario Gradi's a football genius'. The sticklers will say he's never been convicted of anything. Fine. No-one seriously believes he was unaware, at best, though, do they? If you making your voice heard on this matter is you singing that song in 2024, that's what you can expect to be judged on. If we accept that, sadly, Mansfield are very probably going up and we're obviously going to say we hope to be Top 3 as well (even if we're also, correctly, not assuming that will happen) then for familial reasons, it's Wrexham for me. In any event: not Crewe and not the Franchise. This is really my point Mozzer. Of course we'd all "like to think that...". But you're an objectively sensible guy I think, and I suspect you probably know that we'd do more or less precisely the same thing...batten down the hatches, obfuscate, and basically muddle through the controversy to the best of our abilities". It's just human nature. Football fans, by our natures, are more often than not extremely hypocritical people (when it comes to football matters). I do accept the point made (though I'd want to check the full facts if it really mattered) that Crewe were very slow to "condemn" than other teams who were accused. Maybe. And I accept the fact that as fans we're not responsible for the actions of people at our club. I suppose the comparison is with the likes of City and Chelsea. Their clubs acted. We can speculate as to what they knew and when (though ownership was different at both clubs from the time of the abuse) and whether they acted because it became public rather than because they were simply doing the right thing. We can't know. I think the issue is how the Crewe fans have reacted to the club's actions after the fact. Their regular defence is that it happened at other clubs. Well, yes. But then other clubs did something when theirs has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to an acknowledgement (which I find hard to believe anyway, given what we know - people at the club knew at the time, IMO, and did nothing, it's just that's difficult to prove 'beyond doubt') and qualified apology, and the Crewe fans have deflected from the actions of their club by comparing themselves to clubs who've acted differently. And that song about Gradi is just revelling in it, for me. I'm not suggesting all of our fanbase would have the decency to call out the owners or any individuals concerned (and that's all we're talking about - I'm not suggesting fans should stop supporting their club because some people there are shithouse horrors). For some, their club matters more than anything and that's not a position I take. I do think though that, collectively, we'd have at least come to a point of acknowledging the shitty behaviour of our owners once the extent and nature of it had become public. However, having said all of that, I do accept we can't know for certain that we would do the right thing. Nevertheless, in the absence of the unknowable, it's still okay to look at what we do know and take a view accordingly. My view is that Crewe fans, as a group, have been pisspoor on this matter.
|
|
|
Post by atmosphere on Mar 17, 2024 10:28:16 GMT
This is really my point Mozzer. Of course we'd all "like to think that...". But you're an objectively sensible guy I think, and I suspect you probably know that we'd do more or less precisely the same thing...batten down the hatches, obfuscate, and basically muddle through the controversy to the best of our abilities". It's just human nature. Football fans, by our natures, are more often than not extremely hypocritical people (when it comes to football matters). I do accept the point made (though I'd want to check the full facts if it really mattered) that Crewe were very slow to "condemn" than other teams who were accused. Maybe. And I accept the fact that as fans we're not responsible for the actions of people at our club. I suppose the comparison is with the likes of City and Chelsea. Their clubs acted. We can speculate as to what they knew and when (though ownership was different at both clubs from the time of the abuse) and whether they acted because it became public rather than because they were simply doing the right thing. We can't know. I think the issue is how the Crewe fans have reacted to the club's actions after the fact. Their regular defence is that it happened at other clubs. Well, yes. But then other clubs did something when theirs has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to an acknowledgement (which I find hard to believe anyway, given what we know - people at the club knew at the time, IMO, and did nothing, it's just that's difficult to prove 'beyond doubt') and qualified apology, and the Crewe fans have deflected from the actions of their club by comparing themselves to clubs who've acted differently. And that song about Gradi is just revelling in it, for me. I'm not suggesting all of our fanbase would have the decency to call out the owners or any individuals concerned (and that's all we're talking about - I'm not suggesting fans should stop supporting their club because some people there are shithouse horrors). For some, their club matters more than anything and that's not a position I take. I do think though that, collectively, we'd have at least come to a point of acknowledging the shitty behaviour of our owners once the extent and nature of it had become public. However, having said all of that, I do accept we can't know for certain that we would do the right thing. Nevertheless, in the absence of the unknowable, it's still okay to look at what we do know and take a view accordingly. My view is that Crewe fans, as a group, have been pisspoor on this matter. Been worse than pisspoor, they've made life 10x more difficult than it already is for victims of child abuse to get justice. We should never brush these things under the carpet and forget about them or they will be more likely to happen again.
|
|
|
Post by bigmartin on Mar 17, 2024 10:52:58 GMT
Martin's one of my favourite posters on here but he's had a couple of bizarre takes recently. Writing off Knoyle's career without any real knowledge of the medical prognosis (only for days later the medical professionals to sign him off to play football in a matter of days) and now defending* Crewe Alexandra's role (both during and after) in systematic child grooming. *- I say defending, to give him the benefit of the doubt, reading his posts I think it's more that he knows very little about it. You've literally misrepresented me on both points. I didn't "write off Knoyle's career". I voiced my PERSONAL concerns about continuing in professional sport having had a bleed on the brain. I think I said that I would not want someone I love to play football after they'd had even a minor bleed on the brain. He's a grown bloke, he can do what the hell he wants. Crewe Alexandra... If I've defended anyone, it's the average Crewe supporter. I think I literally stated that in one of my posts for the sake of clarity because I know it's difficult sometimes to grasp context and intent behind an online post. And pointed out the absolute hypocrisy of all football fans (a proven fact!). Or at least that was my intention. Interesting when you say "he knows little about it". For the record, and not that it actually really matters (and I probably already regret writing it on reflection but it's done now), but my father was an abuser (he never sexually abused me, but he did his two other daughters from his previous marriage. He physically and mentally abused me though). I don't believe in Sippenhaft. In the cold light of day and reality of life, there's no-one else to blame for his actions than him. And even though family members knew what he was like things are never so simple when you're on the inside as outsiders saying "people should have done this". I know a fair bit about this issue. I've lived it to an extent... I don't see a world through a black and white lens mate. Complex issues rarely have simple answers. My lens has also become more shades of colour as I get older.
|
|
|
Post by hedleyverity on Mar 17, 2024 11:02:28 GMT
They literally did...they apologised (quick reference online) on 18th March 2021 to all survivor's of Bennell's abuse. Its just a percentage of their fans though that are deniers and refuse to hear a word said about gradi. Sure is, about 99.9%
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Mar 17, 2024 11:04:44 GMT
Again i feel a lot of this crewe stuff is as much about our previous dislike for them than the actions of child abuse where we,ll never let it go. If not it means as fan bases go only we seem to be the ones who abhor it the most as for most clubs they play its been either forgotton about or something in the past that the present day crewe fan did not know anything about or it happened before they were born.
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Mar 17, 2024 11:07:33 GMT
Its just a percentage of their fans though that are deniers and refuse to hear a word said about gradi. Sure is, about 99.9% You do not know this and neither do any of us. Next is that club will be a bastion of tory ideals that make a lee anderson look like a lefty.
|
|
|
Post by bigmartin on Mar 17, 2024 11:10:59 GMT
Again i feel a lot of this crewe stuff is as much about our previous dislike for them than the actions of child abuse where we,ll never let it go. If not it means as fan bases go only we seem to be the ones who abhor it the most as for most clubs they play its been either forgotton about or something in the past that the present day crewe fan did not know anything about or it happened before they were born. I agree with you T. It's a stick we use to beat 10,000 Crewe fans around the head with. Like 10,000 Crewe fans are child abusers, or condone child abuse FFS. And of course, 10,000 County fans would have acted so differently if it was us because we're better than Crewe fans are. What absolute horse shit (IMHO of course)
|
|
|
Post by timberwolf on Mar 17, 2024 11:14:21 GMT
Again i feel a lot of this crewe stuff is as much about our previous dislike for them than the actions of child abuse where we,ll never let it go. If not it means as fan bases go only we seem to be the ones who abhor it the most as for most clubs they play its been either forgotton about or something in the past that the present day crewe fan did not know anything about or it happened before they were born. I agree with you T. It's a stick we seem to use to beat 10,000 Crewe fans around the head with. Like 10,000 Crewe fans are child abusers, or condone child abuse FFS. And of course, 10,000 County fans would have acted so differently if it was us because we're better than Crewe fans are. What absolute horse shit (IMHO of course) and mine plus the fans of the rest also. Would we have been as ourtraged for as long as this if it had been say gillingham or torquay involved.
|
|