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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 8:38:43 GMT
That’s not what he’s saying. He’s spoken poorly but ultimately he wants a job at the end of his time as interim manager. Whether that’s as the permanent manager or back with the U21s Yup but the role in question is the senior job. He says he can't rule himself in or out. How hard is it to say that he wants the job - I.e. rules himself in - but is happy with his u21 role if that's where he ends up after his interim spell. Instead, it comes across as very much "I'm the caretaker." But equally he won't himself out. I'm not knocking him for it. England u21 boss is still an excellent role and maybe he prefers developing young players without the media furore. But wanting the job wholeheartedly - especially for role as stressful as the England role - is the most basic requirement imo. From that (admittedly a 2 min clip straight after a tough night) his heart just isn't in it.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 9:04:30 GMT
He's got to be out for the job now regardless of performances. He can't even say he wants the job - the most basic requirement but also won't rule himself out. He seems to want to return to the lower profile U21s. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/3666913730 June 2016 " England Under-21 manager Gareth Southgate has no interest in succeeding Roy Hodgson as boss of the senior national team.
The 45-year-old has not been offered the role or spoken to the Football Association since the weekend.
Hodgson resigned after four years in charge following the shock Euro 2016 last-16 defeat by Iceland on Monday.
Southgate was considered as a possible temporary appointment while the FA searched for a successor to Hodgson.
BBC Radio 5 live senior football reporter Ian Dennis said the England job is "not what Gareth Southgate wants at this stage" either on a permanent or interim basis." That's secondhand reporting though (mainly focused on the FA's view). Not Gareth himself saying it as undertaking the role on an interim basis. Very different.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 9:09:28 GMT
And working with players on things for 20 minutes here and there is why certain successful club managers won’t touch international football. Why I'm not putting too much in to the '20 minute thing', it's probably a reasonable chunk in the context of how long he's actually had with (all) the players, considering some played for clubs on Sunday and we were straight up with the Thursday fixture. Then if that's all that available, which is staggering, don't try it for this fixture. The toughest in the block too. Try it vs Finland after a bit more time and a weaker opponent. It wasn't just the system though. The side was very imbalanced, even if Watkins had come in for Gordon or similar. Then more worryingly he didn't seem to recognise that or was happy taking the risk. I give managers a lot more slack pregame when it's all hypothetical on a tactics board but we didn't play well all game and were too open yet we stuck with it even after Saka was injured forcing a sub.
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Post by scfc29 on Oct 11, 2024 9:16:19 GMT
I'm not really sure what people expect. Well, I do. People expect England to control games and play exciting, fast football while also winning tournaments. But that doesn't tend to happen. Obviously the Spain teams of 2008-2012 were on a different level, but recent tournament winners didn't do that. Since Spain in 2012: Germany in 2014 will be remembered for the 7-1 against Brazil but rest of the tournament they weren't ripping up any trees Portugal in 2016 laboured to the trophy, they barely won a game France in 2018 were decent, tbh Italy in 2021 were classic Italy Argentina in 2022 served up a final for the ages but were ultimately reliant on arguably the greatest ever footballer to dig them out of holes throughout the tournament Spain this year in the Euros were deserved winner, credit to them It'd be brilliant to be like Spain and waltz through competitions and swatting everyone aside but it rarely happens. Not impossible, as Spain have shown, but it isn't the norm. So it tends to be a more pragmatic approach of result over performance. Which, for the seven games every 2 years, is absolutely fine if we're reaching the end of tournaments, as we were under Southgate. No point being France with Mbappe, Dembele, Tchouameni, Kolo Mouane, Camavinga, Coman etc and being all action if you're going to labour in the knockouts and then go out before us. But a good level of performance leads to results. ‘Results over performance’ basically means you’re reliant on luck - a good draw, a moment of brilliance, penalties or something else. That is exactly what we were under Southgate. In international football you have a smaller sample size of games so can get away more often on luck but it’s about giving yourself the best chance, which is what we should be aiming for with such a talented generation. France have won the World Cup and been runners up in recent years by the way, their international achievements have exceeded ours.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 9:17:26 GMT
How we respond against Finland is vital. Anything but a comprehensive display then I can't see Carsley being given the gig. I don't like to over react after 1 game and won't particularly pillar Carsley for last night and trying something different, but I fear the woefulness of the performance has spelt the end (in the FA's thinking) for his chances of getting it permanently. A bit like Southgate though, he was always in some ways in a no-win position with these 6 games. We win the 6 "well it's poor opposition" would have been the response. As it is he's possibly tried something different in an attempt to stand out as something different to the previous manager and it's ultimately backfired on him. I see the fickle press are out in force though: "clear before the game not enough defensive solidity in the midfield" - Isn't defensive solidity from the midfield exactly what Southgate got slaughtered for picking for all those years?? He actually got a very favourable reaction for 2 expected results just because he played a quicker, more free flowing style. Some were even saying he the job was basically his but the media will always revert from one extreme to another to attract views.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 11, 2024 9:22:42 GMT
But a good level of performance leads to results. ‘Results over performance’ basically means you’re reliant on luck - a good draw, a moment of brilliance, penalties or something else. That is exactly what we were under Southgate. You're massively wrong I'm afraid (assuming I'm reading your post correctly and you think under Southgate we were your 2nd point above?). Under Southgate we were your 1st point - we got the results and were successful because he improved the level of performance beyond what it had been previously. You don't "luck" your way to 2 Finals, Semi and a QF.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 11, 2024 9:25:31 GMT
He actually got a very favourable reaction for 2 expected results just because he played a quicker, more free flowing style. It was always an Apples / Oranges comparison though, 2 early Nations League games compared to the pressure of a Euros Finals (which were the most recent games of Southgate to reference). Under Southgate we played some very good Football at times in competitive games against decent teams (see Italy in last qualies, Spain / Croatia in inaugural Nations League).
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Post by suedehead on Oct 11, 2024 9:33:51 GMT
I'm not really sure what people expect. Well, I do. People expect England to control games and play exciting, fast football while also winning tournaments. But that doesn't tend to happen. Obviously the Spain teams of 2008-2012 were on a different level, but recent tournament winners didn't do that. Since Spain in 2012: Germany in 2014 will be remembered for the 7-1 against Brazil but rest of the tournament they weren't ripping up any trees Portugal in 2016 laboured to the trophy, they barely won a game France in 2018 were decent, tbh Italy in 2021 were classic Italy Argentina in 2022 served up a final for the ages but were ultimately reliant on arguably the greatest ever footballer to dig them out of holes throughout the tournament Spain this year in the Euros were deserved winner, credit to them It'd be brilliant to be like Spain and waltz through competitions and swatting everyone aside but it rarely happens. Not impossible, as Spain have shown, but it isn't the norm. So it tends to be a more pragmatic approach of result over performance. Which, for the seven games every 2 years, is absolutely fine if we're reaching the end of tournaments, as we were under Southgate. No point being France with Mbappe, Dembele, Tchouameni, Kolo Mouane, Camavinga, Coman etc and being all action if you're going to labour in the knockouts and then go out before us. But a good level of performance leads to results. ‘Results over performance’ basically means you’re reliant on luck - a good draw, a moment of brilliance, penalties or something else. No it doesn't at all (on your second point). We weren't lucky to beat Croatia, Colombia, Germany, Denmark, Ukraine, Senegal, Switzerland, Netherlands, Iran, Panama and whoever else we played in major tournaments. We might not have set the world alight in those games (although in some we were great) but to say we were reliant on luck is just nonsense. We were pragmatic on a lot of occasions, probably more than we should have been. But that is a world away from being lucky. See above. I think the only real time you could say we got lucky was against Slovakia and Bellingham's goal, as were relying on somebody doing something of that standard. Again, it's not luck. And of the four tournaments Southgate managed us he took us to two finals and a semi. Is there any other team in the world who has had that in the same time? France did, two WC finals and a Euro semi. Maybe Argentina with the Copa America? But we've been in elite company. That's not luck. We've had similarly talented squads before and not got anywhere near that level. See above. But I'd say their talent is better than ours and should be achieving more than us. But my wider point was loads were saying in the summer that we should be more exciting, look at how good team x and y are, but they all got eliminated before us. I'd rather have been England in the summer than France, Portugal, Netherlands, Austria etc who were all held up as being exciting teams we should be more like.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 9:43:03 GMT
I'm not really sure what people expect. Well, I do. People expect England to control games and play exciting, fast football while also winning tournaments. But that doesn't tend to happen. Obviously the Spain teams of 2008-2012 were on a different level, but recent tournament winners didn't do that. Since Spain in 2012: Germany in 2014 will be remembered for the 7-1 against Brazil but rest of the tournament they weren't ripping up any trees Portugal in 2016 laboured to the trophy, they barely won a game France in 2018 were decent, tbh Italy in 2021 were classic Italy Argentina in 2022 served up a final for the ages but were ultimately reliant on arguably the greatest ever footballer to dig them out of holes throughout the tournament Spain this year in the Euros were deserved winner, credit to them It'd be brilliant to be like Spain and waltz through competitions and swatting everyone aside but it rarely happens. Not impossible, as Spain have shown, but it isn't the norm. So it tends to be a more pragmatic approach of result over performance. Which, for the seven games every 2 years, is absolutely fine if we're reaching the end of tournaments, as we were under Southgate. No point being France with Mbappe, Dembele, Tchouameni, Kolo Mouane, Camavinga, Coman etc and being all action if you're going to labour in the knockouts and then go out before us. But a good level of performance leads to results. ‘Results over performance’ basically means you’re reliant on luck - a good draw, a moment of brilliance, penalties or something else. That is exactly what we were under Southgate. In international football you have a smaller sample size of games so can get away more often on luck but it’s about giving yourself the best chance, which is what we should be aiming for with such a talented generation. France have won the World Cup and been runners up in recent years by the way, their international achievements have exceeded ours. They all won though which forgives an awful lot of things. At the end of the day, that's what the fans want. It's pretty poor that we've only won 1 major tournament when you look at the post WW2 records of Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Italy, France, Germany or even Chile and Uruguay if you include the Copa America. Do we just need to accept that we're not at that level and more akin to Portugal, Croatia and the Netherlands? That will be a tough sell.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 11, 2024 9:58:35 GMT
Do we just need to accept that we're not at that level and more akin to Portugal, Croatia and the Netherlands? That will be a tough sell. The expectation had gone down a few years back I felt to more what you mention, seems to then have risen again though with the 2018 World Cup run and the subsequent emergence of a decent group of players like Bellingham,, Foden, etc.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 10:07:51 GMT
Do we just need to accept that we're not at that level and more akin to Portugal, Croatia and the Netherlands? That will be a tough sell. The expectation had gone down a few years back I felt to more what you mention, seems to then have risen again though with the 2018 World Cup run and the subsequent emergence of a decent group of players like Bellingham,, Foden, etc. The problem is we're absolutely stacked in some positions - attacking mids mainly - but struggling in others like LB and a holding mid.
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Post by Fallowfield Hatter on Oct 11, 2024 10:15:49 GMT
The expectation had gone down a few years back I felt to more what you mention, seems to then have risen again though with the 2018 World Cup run and the subsequent emergence of a decent group of players like Bellingham,, Foden, etc. The problem is we're absolutely stacked in some positions - attacking mids mainly - but struggling in others like LB and a holding mid. Declan Rice is one of the best holding midfielders around. I know he plays a bit more advanced for Arsenal these days but he's a natural holding midfielder.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 10:19:01 GMT
The problem is we're absolutely stacked in some positions - attacking mids mainly - but struggling in others like LB and a holding mid. Declan Rice is one of the best holding midfielders around. I know he plays a bit more advanced for Arsenal these days but he's a natural holding midfielder. Fair comment but I think we need a second alongside him if we want to "unleash" the attacking talents and/or play TAA as last night showed. Maybe that will be Wharton, Gomes or Mainoo but all 3 are a long way away from the finished product.
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Post by Fallowfield Hatter on Oct 11, 2024 10:32:52 GMT
Declan Rice is one of the best holding midfielders around. I know he plays a bit more advanced for Arsenal these days but he's a natural holding midfielder. Fair comment but I think we need a second alongside him if we want to "unleash" the attacking talents and/or play TAA as last night showed. Maybe that will be Wharton, Gomes or Mainoo but all 3 are a long way away from the finished product. Bellingham next to Rice every day. Then Saka and Gordon either side of Palmer, and presumably Kane up top because it wouldn't be England without a stat-padding striker who goes missing in the big games. Isn't having two holding midfielders a bit too Southgatey for most as well?
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Post by gibbo on Oct 11, 2024 10:40:24 GMT
Declan Rice is one of the best holding midfielders around. I know he plays a bit more advanced for Arsenal these days but he's a natural holding midfielder. Correct, and we can't play 2 holders as that's 'keeping the handbrake on'.
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