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Post by scfc29 on Oct 11, 2024 10:45:09 GMT
But a good level of performance leads to results. ‘Results over performance’ basically means you’re reliant on luck - a good draw, a moment of brilliance, penalties or something else. That is exactly what we were under Southgate. You're massively wrong I'm afraid (assuming I'm reading your post correctly and you think under Southgate we were your 2nd point above?). Under Southgate we were your 1st point - we got the results and were successful because he improved the level of performance beyond what it had been previously. You don't "luck" your way to 2 Finals, Semi and a QF. We got the results but the level of performance (generally, not always) was never great. This summer it was especially poor. Of course you can luck your way through cup competitions. United won the FA cup last year whilst objectively being not very good, Portugal 2016 etc etc.
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Post by scfc29 on Oct 11, 2024 10:47:02 GMT
But a good level of performance leads to results. ‘Results over performance’ basically means you’re reliant on luck - a good draw, a moment of brilliance, penalties or something else. That is exactly what we were under Southgate. In international football you have a smaller sample size of games so can get away more often on luck but it’s about giving yourself the best chance, which is what we should be aiming for with such a talented generation. France have won the World Cup and been runners up in recent years by the way, their international achievements have exceeded ours. Do we just need to accept that we're not at that level and more akin to Portugal, Croatia and the Netherlands? That will be a tough sell. I don’t understand why we would accept that with the talent we currently have our disposal. International teams change over the generations. The squad we had under Hodgson is in no way comparable to what we have now, there expectations should rightly depend on the resources at the managers disposal.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 11, 2024 10:51:02 GMT
Of course you can luck your way through cup competitions. United won the FA cup last year whilst objectively being not very good, Portugal 2016 etc etc. You can ride your luck at times in a cup competition (see United semi v Coventry) but rarely completely luck your way through (United still had to beat City, and deservedly so, in the Final), Portugal weren't necessary lucky in 2016 IIRC, they beat France (the Hosts, 2 years later World Champions) in the Final.
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Post by scfc29 on Oct 11, 2024 10:56:55 GMT
But a good level of performance leads to results. ‘Results over performance’ basically means you’re reliant on luck - a good draw, a moment of brilliance, penalties or something else. No it doesn't at all (on your second point). We weren't lucky to beat Croatia, Colombia, Germany, Denmark, Ukraine, Senegal, Switzerland, Netherlands, Iran, Panama and whoever else we played in major tournaments. We might not have set the world alight in those games (although in some we were great) but to say we were reliant on luck is just nonsense. We were pragmatic on a lot of occasions, probably more than we should have been. But that is a world away from being lucky. See above. I think the only real time you could say we got lucky was against Slovakia and Bellingham's goal, as were relying on somebody doing something of that standard. Again, it's not luck. And of the four tournaments Southgate managed us he took us to two finals and a semi. Is there any other team in the world who has had that in the same time? France did, two WC finals and a Euro semi. Maybe Argentina with the Copa America? But we've been in elite company. That's not luck. We've had similarly talented squads before and not got anywhere near that level. See above. But I'd say their talent is better than ours and should be achieving more than us. But my wider point was loads were saying in the summer that we should be more exciting, look at how good team x and y are, but they all got eliminated before us. I'd rather have been England in the summer than France, Portugal, Netherlands, Austria etc who were all held up as being exciting teams we should be more like. Southgate had massive slices of luck with his draws in the major tournaments, that is a fact. We got the most favourable draw possible in 3 out of his 4 tournaments, we might not get one like that for another 30 years. We never beat a team when we weren’t favourites to progress in a tournament. We also lost two huge games and chances to progress when we were favourites (Croatia and Italy). I’ve got no problem with a manager being pragmatic, it’s needed sometimes and especially in international fixtures. But many a time under Southgate we weren’t just pragmatic, we just weren’t very good. We had no attacking structure and that was a limitation of his tactical ability.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 11:04:04 GMT
Fair comment but I think we need a second alongside him if we want to "unleash" the attacking talents and/or play TAA as last night showed. Maybe that will be Wharton, Gomes or Mainoo but all 3 are a long way away from the finished product. Bellingham next to Rice every day. Then Saka and Gordon either side of Palmer, and presumably Kane up top because it wouldn't be England without a stat-padding striker who goes missing in the big games. Isn't having two holding midfielders a bit too Southgatey for most as well? I'm not sure that will get the best out of him. It's not where he's been best for Madrid (no.10) and even playing this season I think he's in at least a 3-man midfield rather than a double pivot. I'm even more sceptical when you've got TAA wanting to roam too. What do I know?! But my guess is we need a midfield progressive passer alongside Rice or TAA with a defensive midfielder to cover for him then we have the platform for quite an aggressive and fluid front 4 (or a front 3 and a third midfielder like Bellingham in the "Collar role") to help us keep the ball in big games. Getting Bellingham, Saka, Gordon/Foden, Palmer and Kane/Watkins all in the same team feels like Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes all over again.
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Post by Barmy Blue Army on Oct 11, 2024 11:09:37 GMT
Declan Rice is one of the best holding midfielders around. I know he plays a bit more advanced for Arsenal these days but he's a natural holding midfielder. Correct, and we can't play 2 holders as that's 'keeping the handbrake on'. Maybe but he didn't play TAA too. It's not keeping the handbrake on to have a solid defensive base to keep yourselves in the game and build attacks from. As creative as some players are, the easiest way to score is a simple overload by numbers as Greece showed last night. How do you think a County side of: Addai MSH Horsfall Pye Adaramola Bate Collar Fevrier Diamond Fiorini Barry would do? That's the County equivalent of last night's England line up and probably conservative with the RB. Exciting but it would get turned over by plenty of teams imo.
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Post by gibbo on Oct 11, 2024 11:20:14 GMT
Correct, and we can't play 2 holders as that's 'keeping the handbrake on' would do? That's the County equivalent of last night's England line up and probably conservative with the RB. Exciting but it would get turned over by plenty of teams imo. Not disagreeing, just pointing out that it's one of the things Southgate was regularly criticised for.
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Post by suedehead on Oct 11, 2024 11:30:54 GMT
No it doesn't at all (on your second point). We weren't lucky to beat Croatia, Colombia, Germany, Denmark, Ukraine, Senegal, Switzerland, Netherlands, Iran, Panama and whoever else we played in major tournaments. We might not have set the world alight in those games (although in some we were great) but to say we were reliant on luck is just nonsense. We were pragmatic on a lot of occasions, probably more than we should have been. But that is a world away from being lucky. See above. I think the only real time you could say we got lucky was against Slovakia and Bellingham's goal, as were relying on somebody doing something of that standard. Again, it's not luck. And of the four tournaments Southgate managed us he took us to two finals and a semi. Is there any other team in the world who has had that in the same time? France did, two WC finals and a Euro semi. Maybe Argentina with the Copa America? But we've been in elite company. That's not luck. We've had similarly talented squads before and not got anywhere near that level. See above. But I'd say their talent is better than ours and should be achieving more than us. But my wider point was loads were saying in the summer that we should be more exciting, look at how good team x and y are, but they all got eliminated before us. I'd rather have been England in the summer than France, Portugal, Netherlands, Austria etc who were all held up as being exciting teams we should be more like. Southgate had massive slices of luck with his draws in the major tournaments, that is a fact. We got the most favourable draw possible in 3 out of his 4 tournaments, we might not get one like that for another 30 years. Because we did well in the group stages. That's what happens when you win your games. But go back to 2018, Spain got a favourable draw and lost to Russia. Portugal lost to Uruguay. It's one thing getting a favourable draw, it's another winning the games. We had a favourable draw in 2016 against Iceland but it didn't make any difference. Which shows how good we were under Southgate. We probably only ever faced France and Spain who were shorter odds than us. Testament to how far he had progressed us. Yep, in a WC semi and a Euro final. No disgrace in that at all. Overachieving to get to that stage, I'd say. Don't disagree on some occasions. But on plenty of others we were very good and that's supported by any measure or metric you can possibly use. History will be very kind to Southgate, as it should be. And I think we'll have plenty of dummy spitting over the next 2-3 tournaments when we try and be more adventurous and less pragmatic but end up getting dumped out in the quarter finals again.
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Post by suedehead on Oct 11, 2024 11:35:47 GMT
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Mozzer
Contributor
Posts: 1,399
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Post by Mozzer on Oct 11, 2024 11:49:00 GMT
I'm not really sure what people expect. Well, I do. People expect England to control games and play exciting, fast football while also winning tournaments. But that doesn't tend to happen. Obviously the Spain teams of 2008-2012 were on a different level, but recent tournament winners didn't do that. Since Spain in 2012: Germany in 2014 will be remembered for the 7-1 against Brazil but rest of the tournament they weren't ripping up any trees Portugal in 2016 laboured to the trophy, they barely won a game France in 2018 were decent, tbh Italy in 2021 were classic Italy Argentina in 2022 served up a final for the ages but were ultimately reliant on arguably the greatest ever footballer to dig them out of holes throughout the tournament Spain this year in the Euros were deserved winner, credit to them It'd be brilliant to be like Spain and waltz through competitions and swatting everyone aside but it rarely happens. Not impossible, as Spain have shown, but it isn't the norm. So it tends to be a more pragmatic approach of result over performance. Which, for the seven games every 2 years, is absolutely fine if we're reaching the end of tournaments, as we were under Southgate. No point being France with Mbappe, Dembele, Tchouameni, Kolo Mouane, Camavinga, Coman etc and being all action if you're going to labour in the knockouts and then go out before us. Agree. I'll just add that Italy winning by being classic Italy is a compliment in my book.
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Post by Waldorf on Oct 11, 2024 12:23:39 GMT
Not sure about the writing style though - that was like reading Garth Marenghi at his very best.
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Post by Duncan McOchin on Oct 11, 2024 12:38:43 GMT
Not sure about the writing style though - that was like reading Garth Marenghi at his very best. Brilliant show
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Post by suedehead on Oct 11, 2024 12:41:00 GMT
Not sure about the writing style though - that was like reading Garth Marenghi at his very best. Not enough Darkplace content on here.
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Post by bigmartin on Oct 11, 2024 12:53:19 GMT
That’s not what he’s saying. He’s spoken poorly but ultimately he wants a job at the end of his time as interim manager. Whether that’s as the permanent manager or back with the U21s What qualifies him to manage the U21s? If that's his level last night then I wouldn't trust him to manage a primary skoo team.
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Post by scfc73 on Oct 11, 2024 12:56:23 GMT
That’s not what he’s saying. He’s spoken poorly but ultimately he wants a job at the end of his time as interim manager. Whether that’s as the permanent manager or back with the U21s What qualifies him to manage the U21s? If that's his level last night then I wouldn't trust him to manage a primary skoo team. He won the U21's Euro's beating Spain in the final. I think he's earned his spurs as U21 manager
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