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Post by timberwolf on Mar 31, 2023 10:28:11 GMT
I'm just not convinced we'll get an adult in charge. Things like Thornberry's 'let all laugh at the povvos' tweet of a house covered in England flags during the Euros, Nandy's determination that male rapists should be in female prisons and whoever that nobody was who said 'Kwarteng isn't really black' just suggest we'd be led by the worst kind of twitter w*nker. Funny how many will not forget stuff like that but forget any financial crisis if things improve. Some politicians have a death wish.
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Post by HTC on Mar 31, 2023 10:36:37 GMT
I'm just not convinced we'll get an adult in charge. Things like Thornberry's 'let all laugh at the povvos' tweet of a house covered in England flags during the Euros, Nandy's determination that male rapists should be in female prisons and whoever that nobody was who said 'Kwarteng isn't really black' just suggest we'd be led by the worst kind of twitter w*nker. Funny how many will not forget stuff like that but forget any financial crisis if things improve. Some politicians have a death wish.
it's because those quotes are directly attacking your values, which are an important part of (almost) everyone's identity - they're not saying 'you're incorrect about this, but we can agree to disagree. because hey! free speech', but saying 'you are a bad, immoral bigot for disagreeing with me'
The Tories do it too of course, particularly on issues like refugees, but the key difference is that the vast majority of people they're offending are people who would never vote for them anyway.
Most people don't like that.
On economics, you'll punish the party who have done badly, but won't necessarily see them as personally opposed to you in the same way, more a 'they got it badly wrong this time' approach.
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Post by The Real Exile on Mar 31, 2023 10:40:14 GMT
But we do have to get the Tories out... We need an adult in charge. Like, congratulations to anyone who can't stomach voting for Starmer and puts the Tories back in at the next GE, but please don't then whinge about how bad things are. I'll be voting to get them out, I'll grit my teeth do the right thing despite Starmer.
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Post by Henry Pratt on Mar 31, 2023 10:55:07 GMT
Now we're joining a trade block on the other side of the world without a referendum, I'm also not sure that shipping goods that distance fits with our green agenda, on the plus side it is expected to boost our economy by 0.08%. Badenoch's apparently "unbelievably excited" about it. She needs to get out more.
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 31, 2023 11:01:57 GMT
I'm just not convinced we'll get an adult in charge. Things like Thornberry's 'let all laugh at the povvos' tweet of a house covered in England flags during the Euros, Nandy's determination that male rapists should be in female prisons and whoever that nobody was who said 'Kwarteng isn't really black' just suggest we'd be led by the worst kind of twitter w*nker. (and living in Denton & Reddish constituency, my personal vote / letting the Tories back in doesn't matter anyway as it's beyond 'safe seat' territory) Jesus, if we're going down that route can you bear with me whilst I buy some extra bandwidth for yellow board so I can post all the cuckoo shit that those nutters on the right have been trotting out over the past couple of years. What about Abbott's dodgy maths to. You omitted that (let's forget that Truss and Crazytang de-facto busted us for a generation or two).
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Post by Henry Pratt on Mar 31, 2023 11:06:24 GMT
But we do have to get the Tories out... We need an adult in charge. Like, congratulations to anyone who can't stomach voting for Starmer and puts the Tories back in at the next GE, but please don't then whinge about how bad things are. The thing is, many of those who are now taking that stance (not you, for the avoidance of doubt) are those who actually worked hard to make Labour lose in 2019, knowing full well that a Johnson government was the only alternative. They've given us diamond-hard Brexit, the usual Tory corruption, and a bent liar in charge, who caused ten of thousands of unnecessary deaths (to add to the hundreds of thousands thanks to Tory austerity). I think they've got a f*cking brass neck, frankly, to say that you have to vote Labour now to prevent another Tory government. What's the difference? Other than that the choice is now between Tories and a bunch of Tory-lite middle management suits as opposed to the free-broadband guy whose first pledge from the steps of Number 10, was going to be to end homelessness. The transformation of the Labour Party into a centre-right, steady as she goes, anti-immigration party is just about complete. Yes, they will be better than the Tories. Marginally. But that's not enough for me I'm afraid. And if we get another Tory government because people like me draw a cock and balls on the ballot paper, tough. Should have thought about that in 2019.
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Post by HTC on Mar 31, 2023 11:19:32 GMT
I'm just not convinced we'll get an adult in charge. Things like Thornberry's 'let all laugh at the povvos' tweet of a house covered in England flags during the Euros, Nandy's determination that male rapists should be in female prisons and whoever that nobody was who said 'Kwarteng isn't really black' just suggest we'd be led by the worst kind of twitter w*nker. (and living in Denton & Reddish constituency, my personal vote / letting the Tories back in doesn't matter anyway as it's beyond 'safe seat' territory) Jesus, if we're going down that route can you bear with me whilst I buy some extra bandwidth for yellow board so I can post all the cuckoo shit that those nutters on the right have been trotting out over the past couple of years. What about Abbott's dodgy maths to. You omitted that (let's forget that Truss and Crazytang de-facto busted us for a generation or two).
You're absolutely correct, but the point is that I'm not going to vote Tory either, with things like the Rwanda crap, curtailment of the right to protest and all of that other stuff just as important as crashing the economy.
closest parties to my personal politics in the past 25 years have been Ashdown era libdem / Miliband era labour (probably Smith labour too, but that's very slightly before my time) and nobody is even vaguely in that soft left economically / classical liberalism culturally area right now.
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Post by timberwolf on Mar 31, 2023 11:25:37 GMT
The thing is, many of those who are now taking that stance (not you, for the avoidance of doubt) are those who actually worked hard to make Labour lose in 2019, knowing full well that a Johnson government was the only alternative. They've given us diamond-hard Brexit, the usual Tory corruption, and a bent liar in charge, who caused ten of thousands of unnecessary deaths (to add to the hundreds of thousands thanks to Tory austerity). I think they've got a f*cking brass neck, frankly, to say that you have to vote Labour now to prevent another Tory government. What's the difference? Other than that the choice is now between Tories and a bunch of Tory-lite middle management suits as opposed to the free-broadband guy whose first pledge from the steps of Number 10, was going to be to end homelessness. The transformation of the Labour Party into a centre-right, steady as she goes, anti-immigration party is just about complete. Yes, they will be better than the Tories. Marginally. But that's not enough for me I'm afraid. And if we get another Tory government because people like me draw a cock and balls on the ballot paper, tough. Should have thought about that in 2019. Labour still has to be aware of the old school labour votors who for many generations have supported and worked for the party but turned their backs on it. Then there is the over 60,s who most cannot be called progressive by all means. The party had to re advent themselves under blair to appeal to a wider audiance to gain power. Really is this country a tory country at heart and see labour as the alternative to kick the party arse to get them back on track rather than the support of any labour values. Time might be ticking for the tories but do not think the next general election is a done deal by any means. At the moment its a tory one to lose rather than a labour one to win and people have always had short memories especially with the media drawing attention to any gaffs they make.
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Post by vicar on Mar 31, 2023 12:42:02 GMT
The Starmer combination of centrist economics and authoritarian identity politics just has absolutely no appeal to me whatsoever. With Corbyn, you knew what he stood for, even if I didn't like much of it. With Starmer, I've still absolutely no idea what he represents beyond 'we're better than the Tories' with a side order of 'and we're also morally superior than you' I see the current Labour party very much like the Blair government and I'd take more of that, I know this is old but it's all from the last Labour govt and people called them Tory Lite.
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Post by The Real Exile on Mar 31, 2023 12:51:40 GMT
First thing Blair did was get rid of MIRAS, I'd just got my first house, newborn on the way, cheers Tony....not that I'm still bitter in the slightest 🤣
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Post by HTC on Mar 31, 2023 13:13:26 GMT
The Starmer combination of centrist economics and authoritarian identity politics just has absolutely no appeal to me whatsoever. With Corbyn, you knew what he stood for, even if I didn't like much of it. With Starmer, I've still absolutely no idea what he represents beyond 'we're better than the Tories' with a side order of 'and we're also morally superior than you' I see the current Labour party very much like the Blair government and I'd take more of that, I know this is old but it's all from the last Labour govt and people called them Tory Lite.
Speaking as someone who rated / still rates the Blair era, three key differences. Blair stood for something - the whole ‘Third Way’ thing was a coherent position, aimed (if not always succeeding) at using the money earned through free market ideas to provide a larger social safety net, with a particular focus on improving productivity through education and encouraging hard working immigrants to arrive. The party understood what voters wanted - they didn’t always understand them individually (Mandelson’s guacamole / mushy peas gaffe) for example, but never gave the impression of looking down / feeling superior to people. Personal charisma - Blair has it, Starmer really really doesn’t.
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Post by herbiedumplings on Mar 31, 2023 14:03:00 GMT
I see the current Labour party very much like the Blair government and I'd take more of that, I know this is old but it's all from the last Labour govt and people called them Tory Lite.
Speaking as someone who rated / still rates the Blair era, three key differences. Blair stood for something - the whole ‘Third Way’ thing was a coherent position, aimed (if not always succeeding) at using the money earned through free market ideas to provide a larger social safety net, with a particular focus on improving productivity through education and encouraging hard working immigrants to arrive. The party understood what voters wanted - they didn’t always understand them individually (Mandelson’s guacamole / mushy peas gaffe) for example, but never gave the impression of looking down / feeling superior to people. Personal charisma - Blair has it, Starmer really really doesn’t. Neither does Sunak really, but to a certain type of person, Boris is catnip. Like Trump. Unfortunately.
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Post by HTC on Mar 31, 2023 14:14:48 GMT
Speaking as someone who rated / still rates the Blair era, three key differences. Blair stood for something - the whole ‘Third Way’ thing was a coherent position, aimed (if not always succeeding) at using the money earned through free market ideas to provide a larger social safety net, with a particular focus on improving productivity through education and encouraging hard working immigrants to arrive. The party understood what voters wanted - they didn’t always understand them individually (Mandelson’s guacamole / mushy peas gaffe) for example, but never gave the impression of looking down / feeling superior to people. Personal charisma - Blair has it, Starmer really really doesn’t. Neither does Sunak really, but to a certain type of person, Boris is catnip. Like Trump. Unfortunately. Agreed, and that's also neutered Starmer's main strength.
The 'I'm a serious, quietly competent politician, unlike that joker over there' line works when you're up against Johnson. It's less effective when you're up against another slightly dull technocrat like Sunak.
generally speaking, British politics goes on a charismatic / dull cycle anyway - if you ignore the Truss interregnum, Cameron is the only one that doesn't really fit, but even then, you'd struggle to argue he had less about him on that front than Brown or May.
Thatcher Major Blair Brown Cameron May Johnson Sunak
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Post by David Schofield on Mar 31, 2023 16:38:00 GMT
Neither does Sunak really, but to a certain type of person, Boris is catnip. Like Trump. Unfortunately. Agreed, and that's also neutered Starmer's main strength.
The 'I'm a serious, quietly competent politician, unlike that joker over there' line works when you're up against Johnson. It's less effective when you're up against another slightly dull technocrat like Sunak.
generally speaking, British politics goes on a charismatic / dull cycle anyway - if you ignore the Truss interregnum, Cameron is the only one that doesn't really fit, but even then, you'd struggle to argue he had less about him on that front than Brown or May.
Thatcher Major Blair Brown Cameron May Johnson Sunak
I feel like that interregnum deserves a round of applause 👏 👏👏
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Post by bigmartin on Mar 31, 2023 22:11:30 GMT
And it's all great...
Really...admirable. And I totally get it.
Left winger hand-wringing about their left wing party not being perfect.
But DO NOT COME ON HERE WHINGING ABOUT HOW BAD THINGS ARE IN 4 YEARS if the Tories get back in and you had a chance to seal the deal to avoid that scenario.
That's all.
The very fact that you are on here writing all this utter claptrap reinforces the view that I've always had that the Tories know PRECISELY how to play this game. And they're beating you at it once again.
By the way...I wanted Corbyn. But hey, life's a complete f*cking shithouse. Then you get another 20 years of Tory, and die. Knowing that at least you didn't fold and vote for that bloke Starmer. Shrug.
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