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Post by Henry Pratt on May 22, 2020 8:14:57 GMT
15,000 would be good eventually, think bigger and better. York's new ground looks really shite. So too does Brentford's imho. New out of town grounds are dreadful, redeveloping on the existing site is so much better thankfully true in our case. Full redevelopment of the Railway End and Pop Side with proper facilities is the aim/on the plans wasn't it? I'm far more excited to see ground plans in terms of capacity, stands, etc, rather than CE refurbishment. That kind of stuff's important, obviously, but when it comes to new carpet in the function rooms - meh. New tier on the Pop Side and Railway End? Oh yes! 15,000 is a nice figure, agreed, but I'd still hope it's not the final one. What are we now - about 10 and a half? We'd lose none of that by putting new tiers on the Pop and Railway, and if it went round the corner, I suspect that in itself would take us to at least 15,000. Then in the (much?) longer term, you've got the chance to extend the main stand for even more capacity (and hopefully demolishing and rebuilding the horrendous CE). And you're dead right, doing that will mean the ground looks far better aesthetically than a brand new one. As long as we don't use the CE architect for any of it. |
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Post by advent on May 22, 2020 8:24:15 GMT
15,000 would be good eventually, think bigger and better. York's new ground looks really shite. So too does Brentford's imho. New out of town grounds are dreadful, redeveloping on the existing site is so much better thankfully true in our case. Full redevelopment of the Railway End and Pop Side with proper facilities is the aim/on the plans wasn't it? I'm far more excited to see ground plans in terms of capacity, stands, etc, rather than CE refurbishment. That kind of stuff's important, obviously, but when it comes to new carpet in the function rooms - meh. New tier on the Pop Side and Railway End? Oh yes! 15,000 is a nice figure, agreed, but I'd still hope it's not the final one. What are we now - about 10 and a half? We'd lose none of that by putting new tiers on the Pop and Railway, and if it went round the corner, I suspect that in itself would take us to at least 15,000. Then in the (much?) longer term, you've got the chance to extend the main stand for even more capacity (and hopefully demolishing and rebuilding the horrendous CE). And you're dead right, doing that will mean the ground looks far better aesthetically than a brand new one. As long as we don't use the CE architect for any of it. Completley agree, i get excited over the prospect of redevelopment. Id love to see the plans, im a bit of a nerd like that. Id love tonsee all of that red paintwork removed from the CE and also those bloody red circles at the back. |
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Post by Count de Stockport on May 22, 2020 8:25:39 GMT
15,000 would be good eventually, think bigger and better. York's new ground looks really shite. So too does Brentford's imho. New out of town grounds are dreadful, redeveloping on the existing site is so much better thankfully true in our case. Full redevelopment of the Railway End and Pop Side with proper facilities is the aim/on the plans wasn't it? I'm far more excited to see ground plans in terms of capacity, stands, etc, rather than CE refurbishment. That kind of stuff's important, obviously, but when it comes to new carpet in the function rooms - meh. New tier on the Pop Side and Railway End? Oh yes! 15,000 is a nice figure, agreed, but I'd still hope it's not the final one. What are we now - about 10 and a half? We'd lose none of that by putting new tiers on the Pop and Railway, and if it went round the corner, I suspect that in itself would take us to at least 15,000. Then in the (much?) longer term, you've got the chance to extend the main stand for even more capacity (and hopefully demolishing and rebuilding the horrendous CE). And you're dead right, doing that will mean the ground looks far better aesthetically than a brand new one. As long as we don't use the CE architect for any of it. 15000 capacity when we can't even fill 10,800? My very uninformed impression has been that community engagement (especially with young people, schools, etc) has been very good over the years, but the new owners will have to do even better if we're to fill an expanded capacity (I'm sure they will, if only because they have lots more resources, but I suspect there's only so much anyone can do). Moreover, surely improving the matchday experience is more important for boosting and retaining crowds than increasing capacity? And besides, is it possible to add an upper tier to the Moan stand without having to demolish the houses behind it? |
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Post by timberwolf on May 22, 2020 8:37:00 GMT
even as a league 1 or 2 club we,d only sell out if we played city or dungers in the fa cup with 15,000 capacity. how many sell outs did we get in the second tier when we were in it.
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Post by HTC on May 22, 2020 9:01:43 GMT
The only sellouts I can remember since 2005 when I started watching are Carlisle and Leeds (both games giving the opposition two stands)
The Wycombe play off was next at just under 10k from memory, with several other games over 7k, such as Oldham and the Chorley playoff.
12 - 15k seems plenty for the medium term.
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Post by desmond on May 22, 2020 9:06:23 GMT
even as a league 1 or 2 club we,d only sell out if we played city or dungers in the fa cup with 15,000 capacity. how many sell outs did we get in the second tier when we were in it. But with the needs for segregation etc then you probably need capacity of 15,000 to get a crowd of say 12,000 especially if the home gates are strong. |
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Post by Imposter on May 22, 2020 9:08:17 GMT
I do feel there is huge potential to get big crowds.
If we take Stockport and the surrounding hinterland, as I sometimes jokingly refer to as "Greater Stockport" it's huge. Add Hyde, Stalybridge, New Mills, Disley, Buxton, Poynton, Macc, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Denton, etc... And even southern parts of Manchester itself like Didsbury, Burnage, Wythenshawe, etc.... that all combined with Stockport is a population of 750k.
When we're on form none of the smaller local teams touch us, Macc, Alty, Hyde, etc...
And yes we've got city and United but there's only so many fans they can get in their grounds.
HOWEVER, *having* potential and *realising* potential are two very different things. It'll take years and years of hard work. It'll take the resources, commitment, razzmatazz of Vic Bernard, Elwood, Bellis etc...mixed together and multiplied several.
We'll need to make the offering on and off the pitch better, more entertaining on a matchday. We'll need to find new and innovative ways to interact with and advertise to our fanbase and local community. We'll need to increase all the good community and schools work we already do. We'll need to reach and invite the whole community in, including sections that aren't often seen or perhaps don't feel welcome or comfortable at EP - be that people with differing disabilities, mental health issues, autism, having LGBT pride days, celebrating Ramadan, having dementia awareness days, inviting people from the local at synagogue, etc.. We'll need to be out there constantly and relentlessly, to the point of, "can't open a paper bag round here without a young man in a County kit turning up" or, "No show without Punch" when Vernon turns up at yet another community event like fairs, carnivals, etc...
That said, I believe our owners are here for the long-term, and have the resources and the intention to use those resources to increase our fan base.
I am very excited about the prospects of perhaps finally "growing up" as a club. You look at Stockport, the size of the area and I just think, "we should easily be a middle two divisions club, possibly 2nd tier one". For various reasons we've never truly realised that underlying potential, maybe, just maybe, we finally will.
That said, as always, constant vigilance, and preparation for the possibility of the worst happening.
🙂
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Post by HTC on May 22, 2020 9:26:46 GMT
Imposter. Agree with some of your points, but it overlooks the fact that football is now a TV sport in the eyes of many, rather than a live sport. You can watch every City/United game online if you so desire, and the stadium capacity isn’t an issue for those clubs in that sense. The greater Stockport area you outline is also a comparatively wealthy one, meaning people getting priced out of top flight attendance is less of an issue than it would be for teams like Everton / Sunderland. The only way I see things getting interesting from that perspective is when the EPL eats itself, and some sort of Euroleague begins. I can’t see the average Brutish fan being interested in games against PSG / Napoli every other week, and could definitely see fans drifting away from the Euroleague, and starting to follow County / Tranmere / Brentford rather than City / Liverpool / Chelsea.
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Post by edinburghhatter on May 22, 2020 9:35:44 GMT
And besides, is it possible to add an upper tier to the Moan stand without having to demolish the houses behind it? Not really, unless completely rebuilt from scratch using the present footprint, and even then not much of an increase I suspect. Very expensive for little gain.
But the current stand could easily be extended the full length of the pitch, and given a modern roof... would add about 1100 seats maybe? Much cheaper, and retains a lot of the "character" of EP. |
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Post by Imposter on May 22, 2020 9:43:19 GMT
Imposter. Agree with some of your points, but it overlooks the fact that football is now a TV sport in the eyes of many, rather than a live sport. You can watch every City/United game online if you so desire, and the stadium capacity isn’t an issue for those clubs in that sense. The greater Stockport area you outline is also a comparatively wealthy one, meaning people getting priced out of top flight attendance is less of an issue than it would be for teams like Everton / Sunderland. The only way I see things getting interesting from that perspective is when the EPL eats itself, and some sort of Euroleague begins. I can’t see the average Brutish fan being interested in games against PSG / Napoli every other week, and could definitely see fans drifting away from the Euroleague, and starting to follow County / Tranmere / Brentford rather than City / Liverpool / Chelsea. Which is why you improve the matchday offering, and why you go out to the community, all sections of it, and actively invite them in to games. Show people that the live experience is better than the tv one. It's also why you play up community credentials, show people what it means part of a community, invoke and work their sense of community and civic pride. The fact County are closer to their community than city or United are. The fact at EP you're a valued member of the fan base, community, family, not just a number. And let's not forget it wouldn't take huge percentage of that 3/4 of a million to get to the fan base we need. EP capacity 19k, so allow some space for fan base growth, bigger crowds for big cup/promotion games etc... and I'd say 14k-16k average crowds would be about right. You could easily take off about 3k for away fans and freebie tickets, certainly at 2nd tier level, depending on our largesse maybe even 3rd tier level. That leaves you aiming for about 12k paying home fans. Which is 1.6% of 750k. Hardly huge. As for relatively wealthy that should help us as they aren't priced out of coming to EP. At 18 quid for adults and throw in kids tickets, food, drink, programmes etc... it can be quite a dear do for the average family coming to EP. Even if the relative costs were adjusted down for inflation to equivalent amounts back then my parents couldn't have afforded to take me and one of my brothers to EP on anything like a regular basis, if ever. This should work in our favour compared to poorer areas where people can only afford to watch football either in the pub, or at a lowly non-League level. |
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Post by bighead on May 22, 2020 9:45:53 GMT
And besides, is it possible to add an upper tier to the Moan stand without having to demolish the houses behind it? Not really, unless completely rebuilt from scratch using the present footprint, and even then not much of an increase I suspect. Very expensive for little gain.
But the current stand could easily be extended the full length of the pitch, and given a modern roof... would add about 1100 seats maybe? Much cheaper, and retains a lot of the "character" of EP. If i had unlimited funds I would gut the main stand and extend it as you said but put a bar/pub similar to Tottenham all the way underneath. Id move the changing rooms and corporate into a rebuilt popside that retains its current set up seating wise but has a full length box above with outdoor seating. I would then put the changing rooms under that seating in a purpose built area. Be very simple to build over the reservoir. You could even incorporate a fake roof to retain atmosphere in the lower seating that wouldn't change that much except get much needed food and drink outlets with toilets 100% isn't happening currently but you never know. |
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Post by HTC on May 22, 2020 10:00:02 GMT
Which is why you improve the matchday offering, and why you go out to the community, all sections of it, and actively invite them in to games. Show people that the live experience is better than the tv one. I think the dirty / depressing secret here is that for many people, the TV experience is better than the live one.
Society has moved increasingly indoors at a massive rate, and posting selfies of you and your bantz matez throwing a plastic pint pot in the air from the pub on insta is now the 'modern fan' experience that a number of people seem to want.
Seem to remember reading that the average ST holder now in their late 40s / early 50s at most clubs (this may be an EPL only stat can't rememeber?)- very different from the traditional football fan image of the 20 something man.
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Post by Henry Pratt on May 22, 2020 10:08:25 GMT
I'm far more excited to see ground plans in terms of capacity, stands, etc, rather than CE refurbishment. That kind of stuff's important, obviously, but when it comes to new carpet in the function rooms - meh. New tier on the Pop Side and Railway End? Oh yes! 15,000 is a nice figure, agreed, but I'd still hope it's not the final one. What are we now - about 10 and a half? We'd lose none of that by putting new tiers on the Pop and Railway, and if it went round the corner, I suspect that in itself would take us to at least 15,000. Then in the (much?) longer term, you've got the chance to extend the main stand for even more capacity (and hopefully demolishing and rebuilding the horrendous CE). And you're dead right, doing that will mean the ground looks far better aesthetically than a brand new one. As long as we don't use the CE architect for any of it. 15000 capacity when we can't even fill 10,800? My very uninformed impression has been that community engagement (especially with young people, schools, etc) has been very good over the years, but the new owners will have to do even better if we're to fill an expanded capacity (I'm sure they will, if only because they have lots more resources, but I suspect there's only so much anyone can do). Moreover, surely improving the matchday experience is more important for boosting and retaining crowds than increasing capacity? And besides, is it possible to add an upper tier to the Moan stand without having to demolish the houses behind it? Few points really. Firstly, I don't think anyone thinks your capacity should be set at what you currently fill, surely? Apart from the Prem, and a few in the FL, no one sells out their ground for every game - everyone has additional capacity, and even if it's only filled once or twice every couple of seasons, it makes sense to have it. If we do start to progress back to where we used to be - in the Championship - we could easily sell out a 15,000 ground fairly regularly. Big "if," I know, but our new owners have said that's their aim. We're at 10 and a half thousand at the moment, and that'd probably be closer to 11 with a few seat repairs. So I think if we did develop both the Pop and RE, we'd get towards 15,000 anyway, simply as part of a development (assuming "development" involved building work and didn't just mean "replace seats"). Effectively, I don't think having less than 15,000 would be an option. Finally, for me another tier on the Main Stand is a non-starter. My preference would be to go full pitch length at either side, and replace the roof with one that doesn't require stanchions. Trying to go up would cause no end of problems with Hardcastle Road, and it's not worth it with so much land elsewhere. As I've said before, my preference would be to turn the pitch 90 degrees and have the main stand behind the goal, but I suspect that's a non-starter. |
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Post by suedehead on May 22, 2020 10:11:50 GMT
I think expecting us to more than double our 'good day' gates, and possibly treble our bad/average day gates, is very ambitious, certainly in anything less than a 25 year plan, even allowing for increased away followings.
But the increased away followings are a bit of a red herring too. League One isn't full of clubs who'll bring 4k every week, there's only a small number who'd bring more than 2k unless it was a pivotal end of season or first day of the season game. Sunderland are the obvious one but, looking at the top of L1 now, the likes of Oxford, Wycombe, Peterborough, Doncaster would struggle to fill the Railway End on a normal Saturday now.
Even in the Championship, we'd definitely get some big gates with Leeds, West Brom, Forest, Brum but Millwall, Brentford, Wigan, Charlton, Reading, QPR, Luton, Barnsley wouldn't fill their allocation now, I doubt even Swansea, Boro, Blackburn, Cardiff and other middle of the road clubs would either, unless it was for a blockbuster game.
I'd like us to get 15k-20k gates, but unless the plan is to fill it was divvy day trippers and tourists (which I'd hate and would ruin games for me), it's a very, very long game coupled with sustained success.
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Post by DaveLong79 on May 22, 2020 10:37:40 GMT
Couldnt agree with you more davelong79 but we arent the owners, we have no say unless the owners ask our opinions and even then they dont have to consider them do they? Yeah you're completely right, we potentially have no say in the developments, they don't have to ask or consider our views. It would be nice though. 7.0.1 |
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